Four year old behaviour atrocious

[gonebadlywrong]

I know I must have gone badly wrong somewhere. I feel like I just don’t like who he is much, I know that’s horrible but he’s just awful.

I was driving somewhere today and all the way he wouldn’t stop leaning across, poking his sister, taking her toys off her, just generally trying to make her scream. He just cackles manically when you tell him to stop. He just finds it funny no matter how angry you get.

Doesn’t give a shit about any consequences.

I am embarrassed by how he’s behaved today. It’s been the shittiest day ever.

yes I sit in the back with my 4 year old and eldest goes in the front seat next to her dad (the driver)

Firstly you need to get a Houdini stop for the car seat. Secondly, the angry reaction from you is part of the fun. Don’t react to him at all, just pull over and wait. No talking to him, no eye contact, no music or stories on. Just wait. If you can make the in-car behaviour really boring he’ll give up.

You know if you have told him off it’s actually ok for him to be crying and distressed. It’s not nice for you but it’s ok.
Id suggest sitting him in the seat with no coat or jumper and strap him in very firmly. Clear and short explanation - your arms must stay here if they move Mummy will be very cross. It is dangerous. Also does he have something to occupy himself with? A book or favorite toy. Also short clear rules - this book/toy is for you only.
1 warning and then a consequence- what does he really love? You take it away.
You could also take him out to practise this.
we sang songs, listened to favorite stories/songs when we drove. All good distraction.
Maybe together you could choose some stories/songs for the car.
Its hard. But try to believe in your authority as a parents. It’s ok (very occasionally and for dangerous behavior) to stop the car and really give a strong loud telling off. And a consequence of when he gets home.

It isn’t just when I’ve told him off though @Candlesandmatches , it’s when I’ve become so angry I’ve lost control which I’ll own, I’m not proud of it. It isn’t just ‘I’m cross and I’m telling you off.’ I hurt him today by digging my nails in when I was grabbing his foot (was was kicking at me) - didn’t mean to but I was furious.

He can unclip those Houdini things no problem - he’s almost five, not a toddler.

https://amzn.eu/d/eOg10qM

Have you tried one of these belt clips OP?

On the behaviour is it jealousy?

Sorry ignore, ive just seen your message above.

No advice, just solidarity. My four year old is Jeykll and Hyde. He’s adorable, sweet, loving and helpful. He also demands stuff rudely, spits when frustrated and has taken to shouting ‘SHIT’ at the top of his lungs when he doesn’t get his own way. He whacks his sister and wins her up (unfortunately she whacks him more often and this is just behaviour he’s learned from her). I’m hoping it’s partly the age and partly restraint collapse after being really lovely at nursery, where they have no issues with him at all. I really do feel like a failure of a parent. I’m working hard on making sure boundaries are firm, connection is good and that we’re managing it well.

I’m sure you’re not a failure but it is so hard. DS isn’t normally this much of a… well, arse, but he and DD together just seem to bring out the absolute worst in one another and don’t really know why.

Sometimes you just need to absolutely lose your shit at them, and it stops. Youre only human. We all have a limit.

How old is his sister?
Did he start school in September?
Is it half term?

He is likely jealous and exhausted. His world has changed and he may have been beong good at school all day and now a fizzing bomb.

I'm less concerned about the seat he can houdini from than with the fact he doesn't seem to understand he and his sister must stay safe in the car at all times.

I expect to be slammed for rhis but when mine were little, after tea, they were allowed to chose four sweets from the sweetie jar. If they didn't behave, they didn't get their sweeties. It helped to have something very small to take away as a punishment.

A few thoughts. Could he be hangry when this happens? Some children get ridiculously silly when their blood sugar drops. Try giving him something to eat before putting him in the sorts of situations where he can get silly. A bit of fruit, some raisins, whatever.

It sounds like he's a strong willed child. There are some children you can punish all you like and it will make them more defiant and determined, and shouting at them just winds them up.

I have one like this. You have to talk to him calmly and politely as you would a fellow adult (which tbf isn't a bad way to treat a child anyway). Everything has to be explained clearly but not dumbed down. Think new colleague at work.

My child is far better with a job to do. E.g. ask him if he can do a puppet ahow for hs sister in the car on the next journey. Or get him to make up the silliest song he can to make her laugh. But for mine you'd need to ask calmly in advance not when the behaviour has already started.

Punishments don't work for mine, but natural consequences do. But crucially for us only if the whole thing is done in a calm way, and not in the heat of the moment. So, to take your example, on another day when things are calm and nice and we've had some nice connection time, like reading him a book or colouring together or whatever, I'd gently say that I wanted to talk something through with him. I'd explain that I wanted to see if we can come uo with some ideas for changing his behaviour in the car because it is dangerous and unkind. I'd explain that unfortunately if I can't trust him to behave nicely in the car we'll just have to stick to essential trips meaning no going to X, Y or Z. But moving on quickly to say that I know he can do better than that, so let's work together to find a way that works for everyone to make car journeys easier and more enjoyable for everyone.

I'd vet a pen and paper and make a list together of ideas. Write down whatever he says no matter how silly. Have fun with it. But see if between you can agree some things to try off that list. Maybe a silicone fidget toy would help him? Being in charge of entertaining his sister? Choosing the music? Running around the garden ten times before he gets in the car? W

I know lots of people will roll their eyes; but in my experience treating kids as capable of understanding the issues and empowering them to work with you to find a solution can be very effective. If I treat my child as I describe he is very compliant, polite and helpful. If anyone gets more authoritarian with him he becomes like a different child. School say the same.

I'd suggest reading/listening to How to Talk So Little Kids will listen

Check out Good Inside. Also the Calm Parenting podcast. Both are great for strong willed kids.

What you're doing isn't working, so time to try something different.

Put a barrier up between them on the back seat of the car. Take his toys away if he misbehaves and cut out any screen time. The few occasions my DDs behaved badly towards each other, I bundled them both out into the (secure) garden. That seemed to bring out sisterly bonding and better behaviour.

How on earth do they learn the word “shit”? From you? If not - who? Spitting? That’s just disgusting in my view. How has he even thought about doing this?

Actually I do think dc should react if told off. So if they cry because their behaviour is so awful and is corrected, so be it. Teachers are going to find these boys impossible in the classroom. If I was laughed at by a child or a child would not be quiet, they would be shouting on their own. Preferably in the garden. I’ve met silly boys who really stretch the sanity of their parents and I’m afraid being firm and sticking to your gums matters. You have to regain authority and don’t cave in. Otherwise these dc are the problem ones at school. I’ve seen them too. No friends!

I guess you cannot afford full time nursery? That would provide help and space for you and DD to breathe. In general though - huge sympathies.

Forward facing car seats for under 5’s are a travesty and should be banned, the head is the heaviest part of a child and their neck one of the most delicate, you can imagine what happens in an RTC, with the forces involved. Let alone not being strapped in properly. I had to buy an additional item that attached to the straps to stop my escape artist, but pretty sure they’re easily available, Halfords I got mine from. He sounds a lot like my nephew whose behaviour got worse and worse depending on how tired he was/ he’s diagnosed adhd now but is seriously the most impressive kid…..I think it’s so much harder when they don’t care about any consequences to their actions, the only good thing about phones and screens when they’re older is you can threaten to take them away!

I would do this. Pull over as soon as it’s safe to do so and then ignore and wait every single time. Build buffer time into your journeys i.e. get up and leave earlier for nursery. But you will need to put his sister in the front (airbag off obviously!) so he’s not tempted to go for her to get you to react and then you can play with her whilst you’re waiting for him. And balance it out with lots of praise for being a big boy and sitting nicely and maybe getting to choose the music so long as he stays sat properly. Also make sure he has lots of fidget toys in the car to keep his hands busy.

And have you recently explained the consequences to him of not being strapped in? My 4.5 year old is no angel but he totally gets that it’s important to wear your seatbelt properly or else you might end up dead. It might be worth having a calm chat about it when you’re not in the car because we tell our kids to do a lot of things but few are as important as the seatbelt and the message may have gotten lost in the noise of tidy your toys, use a fork, brush your teeth etc. etc.

OP has the britax versafix which has a Good ADAC score. It’s a decent seat, not a travesty! The vast majority of deaths and serious injury in crashes are from improperly restrained children who either aren’t in a seat at all or it’s not age appropriate or properly fitted. Which OP’s DC is at risk of because he’s half out of the harness. The type of seat really isn’t the issue, OP has a very safe seat that’s perfectly appropriate for a 4-5 year old, and I’d potentially argue that with the DC’s behaviour problems it might be better to have forward facing because you’d spot him escape sooner than if rear facing so can pull over immediately and rectify it.

I remember this time, I'd say the exact same age and I could not relax with the two of them as 4.5yo would be trying to bother, grab from or push baby (1 at time).. I recognised we were in a negative cycle for sure and I was v quick to be down on him/be cross etc. Like your child he would happily sit in a car or whatever it was and quite delight in any loss of control from me. So I had to fake it till I made it. I was over patient and kind and understanding, opted to see the best of intentions which were the stretchiest stretches at times- and just the general love and kindness definitely helped. Lots of outdoor time which luckily was a doable at the time - he cycled 20 to and from preschool and I generally big upped him for being the able and competent 4yo he could be, and often was. It was tough and exhausting.
In my ds case he was and still is v bright and curious, needs a lot of stimulation and physical exercise/outlets. But definitely, my bottom line is - adore him openly as you do and push that last bit of energy you have to give him a little bit of on his own time. Maybe on weekends you can leave him home if car isn't working and he might get it. Punishments were useless here until much later. He's 14 now and a pleasure 😸

How far is it to school? Natural consequence if not being able to be safe in the car = he has to walk, with all the consequences of that (wet, cold, getting up much earlier etc etc)

Obviously if it’s 5 miles, that’s not possible- though it might be possible to drive some of the way and walk from wherever he starts getting out of the straps. But a couple of miles is possible, and sufficient deterrent that you might only have to do it once.

As it’s half term at the moment, I presume most journeys are optional to an extent, so you do have a few days to do the ‘set off somewhere, stop whenever he tries to get out of the seat’ softer procedure before resorting to walking.

Do check his clothing in the car and adjust the car seat straps very carefully- it’s easy to have them too loose, especially if you don’t routinely take off all clothes except close-fitting T-shirt / top.

Move his sister to the front if your car allows it.

I would also suggest more exercise than you can possibly imagine: swimming, park, open area to run, cycling, kicking a ball, trampoline etc etc. Building a couple of hours of full-on exercise in every day was key for DS.

I'm another one with a little boy who was a beast from 3.5 - 5... but since starting school he has calmed down a lot (still very hyper!). We're approaching age 6 now and he is maturing into a lovely little boy. I used to dread taking him out as he'd tear up the road without any sense of danger. He now prefers to hold my hand and we chat as we walk.
Hang in there, it does get better!

Oh and as for the car... we just eventually decided to put one of them in the front. Best decision we ever made. It's FAR more dangerous to be driving with two kids fighting in the back than having one in the front.

@Springtimehere You actually think all dc at 4 behave like this? They absolutely do not. They might very occasionally when tired.

Dc are not going to play with a dc like this and parents won’t force them too. My dc very much disliked naughty boys and so did other well behaved boys. Dc are pretty discerning and they don’t like badly behaved dc. As for teachers - why on earth should they have to put up with this? We have such low expectations of dc no wonder we cannot recruit teachers. Also, some dc don’t get better behaved and they end up being excluded. So I’d act decisively now.

We've had a combination of this from DD (when aged 2-3, strap issue) and from both DCs (ongoing, sorry! they are now 11 and 13).
With DD a permanent and pretty quick solution was to take her in the car for 20 yards (end of drive), 200 yards etc. etc. and if she managed to keep her arms in the straps endless praise, if not, stop the car, we can't go to X because you need your arms in your straps. I did lose my sh*t once when I had to stop 400 yards from home (and she'd managed other longer journeys) but it didn't take too long before it was OK.
With the behaviour in the back of the seat he loves the reaction from you or from your DD. It's like having your own private squeaky toy except it's human. Poke it and it screams. We usually try and separate them on long journeys (now they are old enough that neither of them needs a booster) but when they were so bad it happened on local journeys too (now they are old enough not to get bored on short trips), we would again stop the car. Currently for shorter journeys it's DS in the front, DD behind him but if it's just one of us and they are misbehaving DD has to go behind the driver. For very long journeys with all of us in the car we just rotate so the non-driver sits behind the passenger seat and any child who's behaving gets a turn in the front.

I did use praise for DS when he was younger if he kept his hands off DD but now he's mainly calm on shorter journeys so if I tell him how good his behaviour is it reminds him he could be having fun by poking DD.