Girls’ school at sport

[Franny1]

Sorry, meant to say GIRLS’ SPORT AT SCHOOL!

Has anybody had any experience where school thinks your child is worse at sport than they are? We’ve had something quite upsetting happen and I’m worried it’s going to really put off our DD:

In year 3 our junior school divides the kids into different groups for different days of sport based on swimming ability. DD has been put in the less able group even though her swimming reports have so far always said she’s strong at it. Also, our DD has done swimming externally until very recently and her teacher has always said she was really good too. My DD isn’t someone with a lot of self esteem at the moment and is very sensitive, and I’m honestly worried it’s sending her the message really early that she’s not good at sport, particularly sad since she (and we) all thought she was a really decent swimmer. (This bit isn’t the school’s responsibility but it doesn’t help either that literally all her friends are on the other day.)

I’m going to ask the teacher why, but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice? It’s so important for girls not to be put off sport!

(Incidentally my older son was also out in the worse group for sports but somehow it didn’t matter so much because he was just obviously not that good and so it never bothered him - he worked hard on improving some specific sports and now has a couple of things he enjoys. In fact the whole thing with DD seems so unexpected and weird that we’re wondering if the school is sort of assuming DD won’t be any good because of DS? Unlikely I know but it’s just weird…)

How did they assess the swimming ability?

This is going to be very area dependent. At DD's primary, pre covid, they did swimming in y4. Less than 1/3rd of the class could confidently swim a length at the start Around 1/3rd were what i would class as non swimmers.

Only 4/30 were already able to swim the 3 main strokes and do multiple lengths.

Wheras in an area full of MN children I'd expect most of the class to be swimming already.

They all did a little assessment I think, but in DD’s school they have all swum since reception. (Although in any case if there were people who hadn’t swim at all that would surely push DD into a higher class!)

Would your DD say she is clearly better than the rest of the group, and/or the lessons are too basic?

If someone, approach the school politely and say this, asking what the level of the higher group is.

I can totally believe that it's related to your DS not being very sporty. Teachers don't mean to do this, but I think they often have a view of a child that is partly influenced by their experience of the child's older siblings - I have three DC and I've definitely noticed this.

Have a chat with the teacher OP.

Does she have lessons outside school and has she received any grade badges? You might be overestimating how well she can swim, especially in different strokes. They will surely move her up a group if they got it wrong.

Not sport, but I was put into the weaker music group at Senior School despite having a higher grade than some in the other group. The school admitted they were wrong. I ended up doing GCSE music a year early, out of school.

It depends of the cohort. Are the other girls stronger than her?

I'd imagine swimming to be one of the easier sports to grade people.
Know children like school swimming to be in with friends so not unusual for them to try get into lower level to enjoy fun friends and not have work very hard.
Not saying this is what your daughter did but could happen. I also think swimming teachers good at moving them along levels so your daughter probably move up quicker then other.
Hope it goes well for her. Once gets going and enjoys it her confidence will build up.

The thing is that there are actually six groups - three on the “good” day and three on the “weaker” day. She’s in the top group for the weaker day but that still means there are three whole groups above her. The whole thing feels really weird for someone the school has itself called “a strong swimmer”. Also one of the girls in the top group in the “good” day is someone who only just got moved up to DD’s same swim level outside school…?

she doesn’t get badges at her class outside school unfortunately. That would have been useful…

I’m guessing this is a private school?

I think the swimming ability will always be a red herring.

Year 3 is 7-8 yos. Your DD probably is doing well at lessons and can swim well enough but if you go to one centre and watch you’ll see 7/8 yo stretch across date 4-7 easily.

Then if you go to a club you’ll see 7/8yo in their junior classes swimming 25m of all 4 strokes proficiently.

Some 8yos will start competing in novice galas and racing 50m of each stroke.

This doesn't mean the 8yo can swim swim 25m front crawl well isn’t doing well or good but if you have a small subset of children (most private schools are smaller year groups) you will probably find those who can swim ok and doing well and in a lower group than a bigger cohort of swimmers the same age - iyswim?

It does seems shame that for all sports it’s based on swimming ability but I imagine that’s a timetabling issue rather than a writing them off issue. Hopefully you’ll find some of the others who aren’t “swimmers” excell at other sports and your DD and her peers won’t be put off.

I say this as my DS is a Swimmer but is in no way sporty and can’t catch a ball to save his life 😂 if the expectation was the set was too set level at all sports rather than just a timetabling set for swimming he’d have been screwed 😂🤷‍♀️

Urgh that’s so depressing. Do you think there’s anything one can do when they happens? Do people change their mind?

I think it's just human nature tbh. We all make judgements based on the information we have (which may be flawed). Yes they can definitely change their minds - it's usually more of an initial impression IME.

Setting all sport by swimming is seriously bonkers. Apart from anything else, you can’t swim unless you are taken swimming -and not all parents can/will do that.. I would actually say it’s a pretty discriminatory policy.

I think it is reasonable. Far easier and safer to teach mixed ability football than to teach mixed ability swimming. So set for swimming and muddle along for everything else. In primary, PE is usually mixed ability anyway.

But it’s obviously not mixed ability in the school under discussion! And “muddle along”? Seriously??

It is set by swimming ability which is reasonable.
This may well not dictate for other sports, hence they are de facto mixed ability. I would posit that most primary schools do mixed ability PE as standard (as they just teach by vlass) but do still separate for swimming by ability one way or another.

But by being in group 3 of 6, she is solidly average, middle of the pack. This is fine. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Unless you are saying she is a serious competitive swimmer, then yes, this would seem odd. But it sounds like they think she is of average ability and maybe for various reasons have decided to put her in the best of the developing swimmers rather than the weakest of the stronger swimmers. Maybe because that’s where her friends are. Maybe the other group is very boisterous and they thought the quieter group would suit her. Maybe they think she would be able to help some of the others because she has some mastery already of the skills they’ll be working on.

It’s fine. Not everyone can be top sets and it’s not a personal thing. My Y3 is solidly bottom group for swimming. It’s just not his thing. It’s okay. We don’t make a big deal up it and encourage him. It doesn’t mean he’s bad at sport. It’s just not his strength. He’s fab at maths though where others are struggling.

If she’s in group 4 of 6 that’s throughly middle ability. It’s possible that she could be a ‘strong swimmer’ as in she can do multiple lengths of front crawl but still lack certain skills to move to a higher group. Like maybe she can’t do butterfly, or a somersault, or a dive or something like that. Or maybe it’s a personality thing and they thought she could benefit from more encouragement, a slower pace and being the best in her small group- if by your accounts she struggles with self esteem then that could fit. By all means ask the school how they’ve assessed it but I’m sure they have their reasons.

The OP said very clearly that sport is set in this school. So a child that can’t, for whatever reason,swim, will automatically be in the bottom set for all sport. Which is clearly insane.

I guess you and I just have different experience of swimming levels.

At the schools my DDs went to swimming ability had little to do with general sports, and more to do with parental circumstances to have learned and practiced out of school. My DDs would both have been in a high set for swimming even though they are dyspraxic and couldn't throw/catch/balance because they had had lessons privately.

So my experience leads me to be believe that setting by swimming ability would just lead to de facto mixed ability for other sports given that swimming ability isn't at that age linked to sportiness.

Your experience clearly differs. No issue.

So how good a swimmer is she? Are you overestimating her abilities? How far can she swim, how good is her technique in each stroke, can she dive, how fast can she swim 50 m?

For example, when DD1 was that age she had completed all 10 NPTS levels and had joined the local swimming club. She could comfortably swim a mile, was reasonable at all 4 strokes for 50-100m, knew how to tumble turn and do a rudimentary dive from standing. She was the best in her year (90 kids) when they did swimming at school in Y3, it was a state school in a naice area, pretty much every kid could swim already by the time they did swimming in school. I don't say this to boast, DD1 was never truly competitive at club level but there's a massive difference between a 7 year who can swim 25m breast stroke and one who is doing club galas.

They’ve split year 3 children into SIX swim groups based on ability? That seems very complex.
FWIW, both my sons were poor swimmers - but it didn’t impact their progress or love of other sports in which they have excelled at.

If there’s 6 swim groups, it’s going to be highly dependent on how good the others are too. 4 of 6 isn’t bad

No, it’s a safety one.
Big difference in potential outcomes if a child can’t catch a tennis ball vs can’t float on their back or swim to the side.

How large is this school that they are streaming for sport and what are they actually doing in non swim classes?
I think my experience of primary school sport might be quite different to what yours is!