Nearly 5 year old child consequences?

[TimeforaRoadtrip]

Hello, just looking for some non-judgemental advice about my son who will be 5 in one month's time. His personality is very single-minded, determined, explorer type, always running / daredevil / thrill seeking and asks lot of questions! He just wants to be free and try everything. He can be fairly emotional / explosive at times (thought I don't think there's a sign of anything extreme or unusual) and can also be very loving, funny, and generally enjoys life. He is also quite a sensitive boy at times - again within the boundaries of neurotypical I would say.

Recently over the past month he has been behaving in a different way which we are finding very challenging. It could be down to end of the school year / tiredness etc, but nevertheless I am feeling unsure of how best to manage this and support him.

I would like to know what the of 'consequences' and management strategies could help him here. Do you have family rules? or specific consequences? I am especially interested to hear from parents of boys who are somewhat explosive or similar sounding to our boy.

Examples of behaviours include:

• He has been extremely tired when he gets home and very very grumpy and cross. He will have a meltdown or just fly of the handle at the smallest thing, and sometimes it feels like he is looking for a conflict. He will ask for something then deliberately change his mind as you are halfway through getting it, then change his mind again and berate you for getting the wrong thing, for example.

• He is talking and shouting at us extremely rudely, which is probably partially down to tiredness but still unacceptable. E.g. demanding "get me water" or just shouting "food!!" or something. It's like having a messianic dictator in the house sometimes!

• He will fly of the handle and throw things like toys / cushions / or push over the coffee table. The other day he tipped milk on the carpet on purpose.

• His friend's father recently told him off for something in a very stern way and he flipped out. It made me question my judgement if I have been too soft, or if the father was out of order.

• He absolutely refuses to say sorry.

• He has hit me in the leg or kicked out at me occasionally.

• He also decides he wants to do something and just does it, e.g. we live on a cul-de-sac and he opens the front door (it opens straight into our kitchen) and runs to the house opposite and knocks on the door asking to play with their child even though it's bath time, or something.

• It's not limited to after school - he wakes up grumpy and yells out "Mummy, come!" He is then demanding all morning.

What we are doing about it so far:

• Brought his bedtime earlier. He now has bath at 6.30pm with the aim of being asleep by about 7.30pm.
• Give him energy / carby snacks and water immediately after school followed by lots of filling good food where I can (he can be fussy)
• Trying to mitigate against meltdowns before they happen by preparing in advance!
• With things like violent or destructive behaviours I get down on his level or hold his wrists or block him with my body and say "I can't let you [damage the table]" or whatever it is
• With rudeness I say "I know you can ask me that in a kinder way"
• Not saying sorry - I say that when he does X it makes mummy feel sad or it hurts so and so, and that is why we say sorry.
• I am now double locking the front door!

Before the last month I would have waited until he was calmer and then spoken to him, asked him questions and tried to get him to understand why we do / don't do something. However for the past month those opportunities seem to have gone as he is never calm! I tried it at bath time the other night and it immediately pushed his buttons and began another sorry saga.

My concern is I don't want him to learn that this behaviour is acceptable because we don't have a conversation in the moment about why we don't break things or why we say sorry etc, but at the same time if he is stressed and cortisol is rushing through his brain it's not the best time to have such chats. I know he is slowly realising that he is not the centre of the universe which is a bitter pill to swallow for a little child, but I do also want to support him and not be authoritarian. I want to be authoritative and not permissive, and for him to learn.

I would be grateful to hear any tips if anyone's experienced similar? Thank you and sorry it's long!

The first thing that jumped out was “I know you can ask that in a kinder way” Seriously, what is he learning here?

How about “we do NOT talk to people like that. Until you can ask nicely for your drink, you will not be getting one.”

First of all, you seem to have accepted this change in behavior as just a run of the mill change, rather than trying to determine if there is a root cause. And, if this is not the case, but you left out this type of analysis, then I will file that away and get back to your questions.

When I ask whether you have delved into the root cause for the personality and behavior changes, I am getting at the following:

1. Could he possibly have a food intolerance of or sensitivity that you are unaware of? https://childdevelopmentinfo.com/psychology/adhd-add/five-foods-negatively-affect-childs-mood/
2. Could someone be modeling this behavior in his life that you are unaware of?
3. Could the misbehavior be a result of something going on at school where he is feeling left out or bullied, but unable to articulate this, and taking things out on you?

The diet thing is very real for a lot of people. What I might do is keep a food journal of what he is eating and when and whether you notice misbehavior occurring within 2-3 hours of that. Then, try eliminating one of the typically "problematic" foods for a week to see if you notice a change, and then via the process of elimination you might better understand how his diet may be affecting him. Sometimes, it can be a combination of things. With children you have to be careful that you still provide enough calories, carbs, and protein, but you don't want an imbalanced diet, for example, that is 99% carbs and very little protein.

Oooof OP I think you may have been a bit soft. my DD is the same age, actually a month younger. I would never tolerate some of these things. The asking nicely / food etc - that is just plain rude.

she will often forget to please and thank you - but does with a simple prompt and I remind her with a neutral tone. If she yelled “food!” at me I would tell her off, and she certainly wouldn’t get a thing until she asked nicely.

something like unlocking the front door and running across the road would get a severe severe telling off, that would just not be acceptable in any way.

if she shouted “mummy come” at me from her bedroom, again, I’d tell her off for being rude, but to be honest I just never would have responded to that in the first place! It’s going to be a bit tricky drawing some of these boundaries when maybe these should have been things to smooth out at toddler stage. I also have a 2.5 year old, and I wouldn’t tolerate this from him, but he would definitely try some of these behaviours. It’s more like 2-3 yo behaviour than 4-5 yo.

To answer your question a bit more - I think the key here is modifying your behaviour / response in these situations. NOT explaining it to him, and expecting him to understand and therefore change his behaviour. I think he is still too young for that.

think of the immediate response you give and change that.
for example, if he is rude when he asks for things - don’t give them to him til he asks nicely.
let him fly off the handle, but don’t respond to it. Don’t try and talk him out of it, let him burn out and give him a cuddle afterwards.

If he changes his mind when you are halfway through something he has asked for, say no. For example he wants an apple, then says no a banana, just say “no you asked for an apple. You don’t have to eat it but you’re not getting something else until you’ve finished it”. Then walk away and ignore.

Natural consequences, time outs as a last resort and tbh I implemented them a lot younger than 5. Most of this behaviour sounds more like 2-3YO than a 5YO if I’m being honest.

He chucked the milk on the carpet on purpose so he no longer gets to have drinks outside of the kitchen and they’ll be put in a no spill sippy cup like a toddler would have since he can’t be trusted with a normal cup.

He throws a toy then it gets taken away until tomorrow because he could break the toy and/or it could hurt someone.

I wouldn’t engage with the rude shouting at all. If he was yelling food and presuming there’s no language delay that prevents him using full sentences then I would ignore him until he can ask properly because that’s just not how you ask for things. If he changes his mind halfway through then that’s on him- he doesn’t have to finish it but I wouldn’t provide a substitute nor would I engage with any of it.

If he tried to kick me or chuck over heavy furniture, and we haven’t had anything like that since the early 3s, then I’d give a time out in the thinking spot. Time outs are not something I’d rush into but if they’re not being safe either towards themselves or others then sometimes removal from the situation is the best. Then talk about it when they’ve calmed down.

Does he hear you guys saying sorry? Even if it’s for totally mundane stuff like sorry I forgot to buy whatever at the supermarket just to hear it said frequently at home and realise it’s no big deal may help.

And also when he does do things nicely like remembering to say please and thank you then remember to praise his lovely manners. Positive reenforcement is really important too.

My daughter's behaviour changed in a similar way when she was a similar age. We tracked it down to her drinking Fruit Shoots which contain phenylalanine. From what we could discover at the time, it boosts adrenaline and children's bodies don't know what to do with it. We stopped her drinking it and her behaviour reverted within a couple of days.

Sorry I completely forgot to add a couple of things- thank you for reminding me:

• we spoke to the school and there are no problems there, in fact he’s doing really well both in terms of learning / behaviour and socially.
• the behaviours are only happening with us at home.
• I have wondered if the root cause could be nerves / anxiety about starting Year 1 / leaving reception as he has started mentioning it. The school do operate a careful transition though, but that hasn’t started yet.

I didn’t need to smooth any of these things out at toddler stage though, as he’s only just started doing them. As I said in my post it had been a month of this behaviour.

It sounds like your daughter’s personality is probably quite different.

Gosh @jaydeemthat's scary! I didn’t know it had that in it. Thankfully he only drinks water or pure smoothies as a treat.

Thanks @Bitzeeyes I do always comment when he asks nicely or shows consideration etc.

As I’ve said this is a recent phase and so I know he is able to do it.

My 4 year old can be awful after a day at pre-school or a busy day out of the house. If she is silly with her drink or food we take it away and say when she stops being silly/crying she can have it back and remind her several times that when she is sensible stops crying/yelling she can have it back. If she causes a big fuss at the dinner table she's sent into the other room to calm down which temporarily makes her more angry. If she asks for something rudely or orders us around we tell her she isn't to speak to us that way and that if she asks nicely she'll get the thing she wants (if it's reasonable). If she physically hurts her sister or us (quite rare) we remove her from the person she's hurt, gently restrain her if necessary, firmly tell her hitting is wrong and comfort her victim. Often she laughs about being naughty till we tell her off sternly then she cries but stops being naughty and sometimes apologises.

Boys in particular can bring extraordinary levels of energy and boisterous behaviour, but this doesn’t sound typical for his age and he is taking behaviours to an extreme. Some of his boundary pushing is dangerous and needs to be addressed. I think you are being too soft.

Just half an hour ago my son asked to play with kinetic sand. He got carried away at one point and threw some on the floor. Dust pan and brush handed immediately with a warning that sand thrown again on the floor means it goes away. “Daddy and I do not like sand all over our floor. The sand is to stay in the table or it will be put away.” You have to be swift, firm, and bloody mean what you say. Always follow through on what you say. You also have to have fair alternatives to whatever he’s taking in to his own hands otherwise he’ll feel like all he hears is no. Some of what he is doing is reasonable enough, it’s just that he’s not doing it in a reasonable way. Give him a way that he can call on his friends safely- maybe a window of time that he’s allowed to if he asks you first. But after a certain time it’s too late. Stick to routines rigidly- he needs the order to help him with his chaos.

Thank you @YourethebeerthiefIt’s hard to hear but helpful to hear I sound like I’ve been too soft. Totally open to hearing that.

We’ve actually already implemented the time window on the outside play and lock the door so hoping he will get used to that pretty quickly.

I think one thing that’s difficult to know how to manage in the moment is this new type of game playing / almost trying to cause conflict. Example he might ask rudely for a snack. I ask him to ask nicely which he then does. Then just as I hand him the snack he reverts and says it rudely again- basically trying to test boundaries. Or he will say sorry, I say thank you for saying sorry, then he shouts “not sorry!”

in terms of routines we are very structured with things like bath / bedtime.

My ds is like this!

hot tired and grumpy (yes that includes when he wakes up - sometimes overheats at night!)

Just be firm and hold your line.

no need to be incredibly harsh but yes, if ds is getting out of hand Sometimes I am very sharp with my ds - he needs to be told off otherwise he’ll just keep pushing boundaries. And impose Consequences: We remove something nice eg after school bike ride or Tv program or whatever.

But sometimes when I KNOW it is just bad attitude from being tired I will take a different approach.

”Mum come!” Or “Food!” might just deserve a “WHAAAT did you just say?” And then a tickle and chase around the house! Usually ds is a lot nicer, more polite and better behaved if I can make him giggle. Worth a try!

I could never let that slide OP. The snacks would be put away and he’d simply get nothing. He needs to learn that nice kids get nice things and horrid kids get nothing. I’m the kind of parent who’d have no qualms eating the snack myself and shrugging when he complains. “Nice kids get nice things son. That’s life.” He’s enjoying running you ragged and stressing you out. Be less bothered and let him suffer the natural life consequences of being a little shit to people.

Ok, @YourethebeerthiefI think our outlook differs on that! There’s no way I would ever sit there and eat DS’s snack off his plate in front of him. That sounds like some kind of cruel power game - and I know he’s playing those, but I’m the adult!

I didn’t say I’d eat his snack. Today we had strawberries and cream when we got home from the park. If my son spoke to me in the manner your son is speaking to you I would put his bowl on the counter and eat mine myself.

That’s not a power game. That’s a child learning that they don’t get to talk to and treat people like shit.

what did he do that his friends dad told him off and how did he react ?

I agree with this!! You sound like a great parent

When he’s calm talk to him about house rules and set up a reward chart for following them.

simple things like using manners, asking before he leaves the house. Let him earn his favourite magazine or tv programme or something.

Many young children need bigger motivators to make the effort to comply.

But it’s human nature to want a reward for making the effort - none of us would work for free! Some people want high paid jobs and those often carry more responsibility and pay than another job which some people find suits them.

I told my ds from a very young age that my ears only hear nice talking!

I also told him he only disturbs me when I’m in the bathroom or something if he’s hurt or bleeding etc.

The one time he dog disturb me yelling “muuummmmmm come now” through the bathroom door he’d fallen and cut his chin open 🤦🏼‍♀️

You have to remain firm though and it’s a great lesson to learn people will only want to engage with you if you treat them well.

If he’s tired etc you can have pre agreed strategies he uses so being tired doesn’t become an excuse for poor behaviour. It’s pretty usual for young children to have poorer behaviour in response to feeling tired just like we as adults may have less patience. But he needs to understand how to manage that and self regulation techniques rather than it being excuses because of how he’s feeling iyswim?

You haven't mentioned what you do to try to connect with him. My DD can be awful after nursery (she's 4) so I just stay near her and let her know I know she's feeling really tired and I'm here if she wants a story or a cuddle (don't give too many choices as they're not in a place to choose when that tired).
The worst thing I can do is start getting tea ready or doing other stuff in this time. I've realised that she's not seen me all day and desperately wants my attention so I try to give her at least half an hour of dedicated attention. He is showing typical attention seeking behaviour because he wants to connect with you.

Just ignore when he demands stuff and always follow through. Be plain and simple in your expectations 'I've given you water and it seems like you want milk. I'm happy to get that for you when you're able to ask me nicely' then just ignore anything that isn't the expected response.
Don't try to make him say sorry. What's the point, all it proves is that you can make him do something. Model apologising to others and you can also do this in the moment. Tell him he is making you sad is too emotional.
Big little feelings on Instagram (or their website) are amazing and talk a lot about dealing with these behaviours.

So in the snack scenario, you immediately remove the snack without comment. Put it away, ignore the tantrum, and get on with whatever you were doing before. He doesn't need an explanation for that, he will understand perfectly why the snack was removed. It will only take a few times and he will realise that game is over.

@User415373thank you, I’ve followed big little feelings since he was 2. To connect we do puzzle books, maze books together and have magnet tile building contests, alongside reading and watching cartoons. I set aside the time after work to spend with him and only move out if the room if I am making a snack, but our kitchen is in the same room so even then I don’t leave him.

I was busy with the food but I gather from my husband that he started eating before others had filled their plates. On that occasion the Dad told him off and he answered back with “I’m hungry”.

another time the Dad was trying to get him to put down a toy that he and the other little boy had been playing with and being silly. The man’s son responses immediately by letting go but my son didn’t. The Dad then shouted “put it down NOW”, and my son clung on tighter. The Dad then got into a wrestling match with the toy. My son basically responded to him by upping the ante every time.

With this description of the other boy's father's behavior, I would say that there is not a problem with your five-year-old son so much in these situations, but there is a huge, giant, red-flag waving problem with that dad. His behavior is immature, retaliatory, and if he is truly "yelling," then borderline verbally abusive. He is forgetting that your son is not yet even five years old. His expectations for his behavior in those scenarios is for a child much, much older, and as the parent of another child, highly inappropriate.