4year olds behaviour

[Paul2023]

Hi -some advice from anyone. Myself and DE have two children. One ten year old girl and a four year old boy.
Myself and DW are struggling with DS who is five in a few months. His behaviour in the morning in particular has become horrible recently. He doesn’t want to get up for school, it’s a battle to get him dressed , brushing his teeth is a battle, aswell as him eating breakfast.

When he has a tantrum, including this morning when he got up for school, he says things like ‘you’re the worst mum ever, I don’t like you , I hate you. Stop being rude..

Really nasty comments and I don’t know where he gets it from. I’ve just done a night shift and got home. DW is struggling and was almost in tears this morning, not for the first time.

He is in reception, one of the youngest. He doesn’t seem to have these issues at school, the teacher hasn’t said anything atleast.

The other night he was rude and just quite horrible, he was sent to bed without a story. I tried to explain to him a little while after that he was being unkind and that he should say sorry to mummy. He refused, I then had to go to work for the night.

He said sorry the next morning and was completely fine, did everything he was asked.

But this morning, had the poor behaviour again. Our DD who’s ten wasn’t like this, I really don’t know what we can do.

Is this a horrible phase , will it ever pass? Anyone got any advice ?

He is very young to be at school. He is probably just very tired coming to the end of the school year and maybe a bit anxious about the change in routine with the summer holidays approaching/maybe if he is getting a new teacher next year he is upset about that change too. My advice would be try to talk to him about the changes that are going to happen or reassure him ie "what friends would you like to have play dates with over the summer?" "What was the best thing about your new classroom?" Etc

Other than that I would say absolutely don't compare your children's behaviour. They are different people with different experiences, emotions and nature's.

If he is being rude I would say something like, "I can see you are angry/tired/frustrated but you still have to speak kindly to me. What else could you do to feel better?" He will probably say he doesn't know and then you can say "use your words to tell me how you are feeling." If he doesn't know then help him to name what's going on ie "you are tired and you are finding it hard to get ready for school, how can I help you?"

Just also to say my 5 year old has been exhausted the past couple of weeks, I just think they need a holiday!

Sounds like a classic case of end-of-term-itis. Don’t take it personally and stay calm. Encourage him to use his words to talk about his feelings with gentle reminders that we don’t shout or use unkind words. Think of what you can change to make the pinch points easier- keep toothbrushes downstairs, offer a breakfast you know he’s likely eat without a battle, start bedtime earlier etc. If you think there might be anxiety about summer break or a change of teacher talk about that positively. Don’t withhold his bedtime story and don’t give it too much of a reaction. If the mornings are rushed with you on night shift and 2 kids for your wife to get ready and out the door there’s a chance that it’s also just attention seeking because little kids are weird like that. I’m sure summer holidays will sort it right out though!

It sounds like a phase, and a very common one, especially around age four to five. It’s incredibly tough when you’re in the thick of it (especially with sleep deprivation on top), but many parents go through something similar, and it does pass.

At this age, kids are still learning how to manage big feelings, and mornings can be particularly hard because they’re transitioning from sleep, dealing with time pressure, and maybe even school anxiety (even if it doesn’t show outwardly). The fact that he’s doing fine at school suggests he’s capable of emotional regulation—it’s just that home is his safe space to let it all out. try to ignore the nasty words where possible—he’s trying to provoke a reaction and test boundaries. If you respond calmly and don’t give the words power, they tend to lose their edge.

You’re both clearly loving, present parents trying hard, and that matters more than getting every response perfect. Hang in there!

Could be tiredness from school. Keep an eye though and if it continues over the summer holidays it might be worth speaking to the GP and looking to see if there is a self referral parenting course offered by your local council. Not because parenting sounds particularly at fault, just because if you're having issues with behaviour it's the first thing they'll suggest and it's a box to have ticked if you later end up going down the route of referral for SEN. Plus with children who are a bit more challenging than usual, it can really help to have some feedback on how to really fine tune all the probably good stuff you're doing already.

It's mad how people jump to SEN whenever a child acts up. Your DS behaviour sounds very normal for his age/stage in the school year.

Nobody has jumped to SEN. Are you referring to my post? I assume so since nobody else mentioned the term at all. I'm specifically saying it doesn't warrant looking at yet.

What I said was - now, do nothing, hope it gets better by the end of term, which it probably will.

IF it becomes a longer term pattern (which it might not) look into behaviour/parenting support.

IF that does not help or issues persist (which it probably will help/issues might not persist) at some point in the future SEN might come up in which case it's helpful to have had the parenting input at an earlier stage.

How is that jumping to anything?

It sounds really normal for the end of reception. He’s probably just exhausted. The first few weeks of the summer holidays might be a bit tricky
too from our experience.

Hi all thanks for your feedback. He was a premature baby, has he been on time he wouldn’t have started school until this September. But as he was born in the last week of August , he stated last September.

He has only just turned 4 when he started school , I do understand that it can be tiring going to school full time at that age.

He isn’t like this all the time like I said , but it’s just awful when he is. So draining.

Isn't there some statistic that says basically 85% of poor behaviour in little ones is due to tiredness or hunger? Or something like that. Agree with pp it's probably tiredness this far into the school year.

Sounds like a small knackered child who's ready for the summer break

Put him to bed earlier, big bowl of weetabix and hot milk before bed

Thanks again. Just another one, a few weeks ago DW was in town and said DS could chose a toy ( she said he could have one of two that were a certain price).

He ran ran off and found an expensive toy that DW didn’t say he could have. She said no and he then had a meltdown in the shop and all the way to the car. It was very stressful for DW.

I think you might have to manage your expectations a little bit as well. My ds has a tantrum pretty much every time we say no especially if he is tired or hungry. It's not fun. It's draining as hell but I think, with some kids it's just where they are in their development and you have to just expect a level of unpleasantness in your day. They want a lot of stuff, have no understanding of cost, they have very little emotional regulation and almost no power. One of the few things they can do when they don't get what they want is to throw a tantrum.

I don't have the perfect way of dealing with tantrums but a few things that help us:

1. be consistent and never give in to a tantrum (e.g. in this case don't buy the more expensive toy. I'd have probably said it's one of these two or nothing and then started to walk out. Usually, he quickly comes around when he realises he risks losing the "less wanted thing" as well.)

1. Always have snacks and water with you and try to keep them well fed and not tired. (I know more difficult to do than say. We can't avoid the Long days so ds is a tired little dragon every single weekday evening)

1. When he starts hitting or kicking or screeching in my face I tell him that hitting, etc is not OK and I'm going to leave because I don't want to be hit. Ajd then I walk away. If walking away isn't an option I'll hold his hands so he can't hit. I try to use as little physical force as possible but I want him (and dd!!!) to learn that you should never let anyone physically hurt you no matter who they are.

1. Once they are in full tantrumming mode there is very little you can do or expect from them. They can't really be reasoned with anymore. They are too overwhelmed and emotional. So try to get in before that eg with a warning of a consequence or a reminder of something good that will happen if they behave.

1. Always offer a big cuddle after a tantrum. All these big emotions are exhausting and scary for little ones as well.

By the way, my dd wasn't like that either but seeing other kids I think she was more the exceptions. Being summer born doesn't help either. They are basically expected all day long in school to behave according to standards set out for older and more developed kids, which must be exhausting. My ds is also born end of July and at the end of the day he is absolutely shattered.

Good luck

I think this is asking too much of him. 4YOs don’t really understand money. He might not even recognise numbers over a certain value written down. And you know what he’s like personality wise…

I would have agreed in advice what he’s going to buy- he can choose a new lego set for example (or toy car, or whatever he likes - the point is to agree it in advance) so you only go to that section. And with my 4YO I typically set a rule that he has to be able to carry it himself in one hand because he needs a hand free to hold my hand whilst we cross the road. This he accepts because it makes sense to him, more than under £25 does, and it automatically rules anything large and therefore expensive. Even with my 8YO we agree in advance what we’re they’re for otherwise we’d be in there all bloody day. She can stick to a price limit though. 4 is just too little.

OP I posted about this exact issue yesterday and I got flamed by people effectively saying my son sounds awful! He is also going to be 5 shortly, and this phase has just come upon us in recent weeks. I also think it’s to do with long term tiredness coming to the end of the reception year, and also a bit of nerves / anxiety about moving up to Year 1. This has been mentioned at school but they haven’t started the actual transition process yet so I think he’s scared and doesn’t know what to expect or who his teacher will be / what it will be like, and I suspect feels like he has no control over his life. He’s still at the stage where he gets confused about days of the week (we have tried to help him with visuals) and sometimes wakes up asking if it’s school today or asking what he is doing today, so I feel like he has no concept of when school term ends, and when year 1 begins, which makes it all feel scary. He often covers up this with “toughness” and being angry - again not something we’ve encouraged and his Dad is good at modelling vulnerability but I think boys just pick up on this stuff from their friends at school.

Thanks again all for your advice

Hi again. So no change today, DW has left for work in floods of tears saying she can’t do this anymore. I did a night shift last night and got home about 8am. I had a feeling that DS wasn’t going to do as he was told , and I had that anxiety feeling on my way home.

DS was dressed but had refused to for DW, she had a big battle with him, whilst he told her he hates her and she’s the worst mummy in the world.

When I got home , DW was I the kitchen crying, I’m aware this is also upsetting for our DD. DW says she doesn’t know if she can keep doing this.

I then ordered him upstairs, told him he’d really upset mummy and this was really unkind.

He went quiet , had tears rolling down his face , then I took both children to school. I just called DW who is in her works car park, still really upset.

What can we do? We’ve tried making getting dressed a game , tried being firm , but it doesn’t seem to work. This has been this way for the last 6 weeks or so.

DW says he isn’t allowed out this afternoon to play with our neighbours little boy and we need to stick with it.

I appreciate our DS sounds horrible, it seems to be a morning thing though, and I’m really worried DW isn’t coping well.

Has anyone had anything like this ?

I don’t think punishments are the answer. Understanding/ validation and clear boundaries will help, but it’s not an immediate fix. Keep following the advice here and realise that it will probably be rough until the end of term. Try to let the ‘mean’ words roll off you. He doesn’t mean it. School is taking it all out of him and he’s communicating this with his behaviour. He’s not naughty or rude, he’s just knackered and overwhelmed and has no way of regulating that or even articulating it at his age.

DS behaved in a similar way at this age and I found the online parenting resource ‘Good Inside’ really helpful. It really changed DH and my approaches to and understanding of ‘bad’ (ie inconvenient) behaviour. She has a free podcast too.

Also try to separate out his behaviour and your wife’s response. Sounds like she needs some support in order to build her capacity right now (understandably enough!)

I feel like Im letting her down. I do shifts , I’m not always there in the mornings to help her.

Im not looking for sympathy, but I’ve literally just got home from a school run and a night shift. I’ve come home to my DW really upset about DS’s behaviour , our ten year old has seen her mum crying, and DW has gone to work all upset.

My grandmother passed away a few weeks ago, I’ve got her funeral coming up this week so I have this going on too.

Life just feels so shit at the moment and I can’t see a way to resolve it.

That all sounds so difficult @Paul2023. No doubt your DS is picking up on some of the grief/ stress going on. Balancing kids, night shifts, significant family events - it's too much, so no wonder you're all overwhelmed.

Try to be kind to yourselves and each other. And know that you're not going to fix DS's behaviour by being more strict or punishments.

Sometimes you just need to lower your standards/ expectations (of your DC and yourselves). It won't be forever, but for now do what you need to do to get through the next few weeks and take the pressure off.

Manage expectations the night before, so clothes out ready etc. let him have a visual list so he can see what he needs to do and when but keep it simple and fun. Say if he gets 5 smiley faces at the end of the week he can have x amount to buy a toy or something. Keep evenings really calm. Be absolutely consistent and your dw needs to try and be breezy rather than emotional. It is hard but he is tired I would think or maybe is finding school a bit much. If he is struggling then a worry box might help, where he can write or draw a picture of his worry before bed so it is gone.

Thanks all. So does anyone else think that stopping him going out after school is a bad idea then as it’s a long time after the morning? This isn’t really a punishment with doing ?

My DS has just turned 5, for him I think that punishment would be too far in the future and he wouldn't join the dots and behave differently the next time.

But you also need to back your wife up on this occasion if she has already told him that is the consequence. Then talk about it afterwards. DH and I are really careful not to undermine what each other has told DC even if we don't always agree with it.

There's a book called 'The Explosive Child' which is pretty good. The author argues that 'kids do well if they can' i.e.your DS is not being naughty or mean, he is little and he is struggling.

You all sound totally overwhelmed, try and lower your demands/expectations until the term ends and other life events calm down. Honestly, on occasion we've sat DS on the loo with the ipad and dressed him while he plays games before. Not how I would like to parent in an ideal world, but it gets him dressed with a fight and we get to work and school with no tears all round.

While I totally agree that its important you back each other up, it's also important you are able to change your mind and you model this to DC. So, I've often come down with in hindsight too harsh consequences for behaviour. (E.g. 'right, no screens FOR A WEEK'). If I realise I've acted to harshly, or not in anyone's best interests, I might say to DC: 'You know what I said earlier about no screens for a week? I said that in anger because I was frustrated at the situation. I realise now that it was too harsh and a knee-jerk reaction and that it was an unreasonable response. So, let's start over...'

I might also then have further conversations about e.g. how I know brushing teeth at bedtime is boring/ they do'nt like doing it. Is there anything that we can do to make it go more smoothly? They'll probably say 'I don't know'. But as PP mentions, you can then make (reasonable) suggestions. E.g. how about I put the toothpaste on and get it ready for you while you're putting your uniform on? Or how about you brush your teeth after breakfast instead of before? For my DS, turns out he hates brushing his before becaue he doesn't like how it changes the taste of food. But he's only been able to express that to us as he got older. When he was 4 he just kicked off about tooth brushing every morning.

Modelling the behaviour you want is key. This goes for feelings too. If your wife cries in front of the kids (and who hasn't been there?) it will likely unsettle them. They'll feel a bit unsafe. Is mummy ok? Or, as likely 'I'm so bad that I've made mummy cry'. Explaining your feelings to them during/ after can help a lot here. 'Mummy cried earlier because she was feeling really frustrated. It's not your fault. We all have big feelings and you're not responsible for my feelings. I bet you felt a bit worried/ scared/ sad when Mummy cried? Yes, that makes sense. It's horrible seeing someone we love upset. It's ok to cry though. Sometimes having a cry can make us feel better.' Etc etc etc. It's also ok to say to them 'we're all finding things a bit hard right now aren't we... That's ok. We'll get through this together' etc...

It's bloody hard though! When you're feeling all the feelings yourself you usually don't have the wherewithall to articulate them to small uncooperative people.

Things that helped me when I was struggling with parenting A LOT a few years ago:
Good Inside: https://www.goodinside.com/
Siggie Cohen on Instagram ('dr.siggie')

I'm not affiliated with both of them (I wish! I bet they're both raking it in...), but these two helped me rethink my approach to parenting, understand what 'bad' behaviour is often above, and also taught me about the importance of validation and how to do it (because it was never done to me as a child, so I had no idea it was even a thing until my kids were about 6 and 8)