Those who didn't sleep train, when does it get better??

[Utterlyincandescently]

I'm lucky that my baby slept through the night for the first five months, but then she suddenly started to wake 3 times a night and has done for the past 6 weeks. She's usually asleep by 7:30 and then wakes at 11, 2 and 4, and then she's up for the day at 6:15.

She's always been a terrible napper but this was manageable when I was getting a full night of sleep. We're lucky if we get one decent nap a day now. I'm just so exhausted, with so few breaks. She needs constant entertaining when she's awake or she'll grumble and cry.

Will this get better?? How much longer do I need to do this for?

Asking a question on MN doesn’t make anyone do anything other than perhaps think about something in a different way.

Sleep training isn’t cruel. We know that. The research shows that. Mothers (and fathers!) who have done it know as they are doing it that it is not cruel. They do it gently and are there always for their children through it.

Shutting the door and leaving a child to scream endlessly into the darkness with no one to comfort them all night is cruel and is not the same. People think of it like this.

Unfortunately I think we do live in a time where there is so much pressure for mothers to be absolutely perfect and raise their children perfectly. Which of course, we can’t. Mumsnet is full of gentle parenting threads from parents who can’t stop shouting at their kids because their gentle parenting methods aren’t working but they think gentle parenting is the right and only way to parent.

Some mothers think they would be failing if they were to teach their child to sleep through the night in their own bed. Instead the only right thing to do is boot your husband out of the bed and co-sleep until the night wakings stop, sleep in the floor in the child’s bedroom, let them crawl into your bed through the night, and just generally get used to less sleep every night.

the judgement is Sleep Training is Cruel and Damaging. Don’t do it. It’s even likened to being a parenting tool in the same way that physically striking your child is a “tool”.

No mention of those avoiding sleep training to their serious detriment. I have so many friends struggling and some on the brink of divorce because their now 3, nearly 4 year olds have horrendous sleep hygiene and are up and down through the night. Every night is a game of musical beds and every time I see them they’re complaining about sleep issues. At 3 years old these issues really should be long gone. All of them refused to entertain any kind of sleep training.

It’s absolutely a choice not to sleep train (obviously), and if it works for the whole family and everyone gets the sleep they need then great. But if the results of not doing it are crippling you, it might be time to put aside your ill-informed opinions on it and think about how you can gently, lovingly, but firmly teach your child that they have a bedroom and a bed to sleep in and mummy and daddy need sleep too.

I sleep trained and I am always responsive and always come when my child needs me. Sleep training is more than ignoring your child until they fall asleep crying. I know you have images of poor little waifs sobbing themselves to sleep with no one coming to cuddle them, but that’s not how it is.

I sleep trained my first but not my second. Things do get better but it’s gradual. DD still wakes at least once in the night (nearly 2) but it’s a very quick drink of water and back to sleep. The killer is when she wakes multiple times and I can’t get back to sleep.

As an aside, I think when someone has said they aren’t finding your views helpful it’s best to politely leave it.

SEE I knew the pro sleep trainers would come for my reasons, that's why most people who don't want to sleep train don't verbalise why they don't want to.

The point I was making was that the first comment that was really negative was someone saying 'sleep training is cruel'
Why was it OK for that person to make that comment? Up til that point people's comments were along the lines of don't rule anything out, stay open minded. Nothing nasty.

It was the person who decided to attack people who choose to sleep train who changed the tone yet I don't see you jumping on them

I have already explained that I missed that comment.

Why would you jump on a thread titled 'for those who have not sleep trained' and continue to advocate for something OP has said she doesn't want to do though? I'm just confused, I wouldnt jump on a 'for those who have chosen not to breastfeed' and say but don't rule it out, keep asking why not and keep going on about it? I'd quite rightly be told to be quiet and this thread isn't for you.

Why is it misguided? Maybe you should keep your opinions to yourself and let people parent as they want to

You could say that about all the people posting on this thread sharing their experiences of co-sleeping etc? That if they are so content with their choices why feel the need to post?
Why are you so determined to silence people who don't agree with you?

I notice those on this thread who had positive experiences of sleep training are posting in a measured way saying things like OP needs to work out what works for her, lots of good options.

Those who disagree with sleep training are determined to silence those who don't agree with them. Why is that?

How do you know I didn't have one child I didn't sleep train, and one I did?

Does it ever occur to you I might have experience of both? I actually had two very different babies (newsflash: babies are all different, therefore you adapt your choices accordingly) and I did different things with each?

OP asked when does it get better. I responded to another posting saying its much harder to sleep train a 3 year old.

You don't know from what position I'm speaking??

And i think you'll find i posted a scientific study which demonstrated that it doesn't matter whether you sleep train or not??

Check your bias. You are so defensive and I think you need to actually read my posts instead of jumping down my throat because you think I'm here to push sleep training.

I think SLEEP is important, for both mother and baby. How families get to that is whatever works for them! But what I don't like is when the whole family is suffering and sleep deprived, and thinks they must doggedly carry on without trying something different.

The OP asked 'when does it get better' suggesting she's finding it tough. I don't ever want mums to feel they have to martyr themselves over something like this if they are struggling.

Sorry if that goes against your strongly held views 👌

I think you need to calm down, I have not 'jumped down your throat at all', I simply asked why you have come on a thread and continued posting about the benefits of sleep training despite OP saying she doesn't want to.

I'm not defensive, I'm happy with the choices I've made, my children sleep well and I didn't need to sleep train.

Easy - because it’s totally irrelevant to the thread.

If OP had asked about pros and cons of sleep training, it would be different. But she didn’t.

IME without any kind of sleep training at all, it is generally shit from about 4 months until after a year - I did cope with this by co-sleeping. I found it tough around a year with the first two because it seems like other people are getting progress and you're not. Both my first two kids slept through the night at about 2.5 years but there was a point around 16/18 months when I felt a big shift and that it all became much more manageable as in they were sleeping longer chunks without me having done anything.

DS3 I was a bit clearer in approach with and he did sleep through about a year earlier.

I don't think controlled crying is abusive or causes trauma but I just didn't want to do it. It's not how I approached any other behavioural issues so it wasn't how I approached sleep either. I wanted to do it at their pace and I think it's possible to do that. It's not all or nothing like either you do a method involving crying or you just wait until they do something on their own. I changed sleep habits slowly, one step at a time and it worked for us. I liked Lyndsey Hookway's books/instagram which I didn't have with DS1 (I was a fan of Elizabeth Pantley then!)

With DS1, I just coslept with him from birth until he was over 2 and he kept stealing the covers and it wasn't restful for either of us any more, gave him his own room, lay with him each night to settle him, when he woke in the night I went in and out which was mad and I posted on MN despairing about it and someone said he's 2 - get him to come to you. So I did and that was brilliant. We had a gate on the stairs and I left the landing light on. If he woke in the night I shouted through to him and his little feet would pad along the corridor and he'd get into my bed. He'd go to sleep, or wriggle too much and I'd take him back to his and say goodnight. He gradually came through less and less until he was sleeping through.

DS2 I tried to be more proactive, used cot for naps from about 8 months, put him to bed in his own room, tried to settle him in there if he woke but it never worked so ended up bringing him through to us. Only slept through when he stopped breastfeeding aged 2.5. Then DH took over bedtime as I was so heavily pregnant I couldn't lift him into bed and he somehow got him to stay in bed after he said goodnight and left the room! If I ever tried that he would just cry and I'd feel bad.

DS3 I was a bit clearer, still did naps in cot from ~4 months and bedtime in cot from ~9 months but didn't even try MOTN resettles, just brought him to me every time to maximise everyone's sleep until I was totally ready to commit to resettling him in his own room which I did about 15/16 months. You could call this sleep training - I think really, I was training myself more than him! I had to do it in increments because my resolve when half asleep is absolutely pitiful, so I gave myself a time limit - I was already resettling (feeding to sleep) in his room from all wakes between 8-11pm so I just extended this to 1am, then 2am, and I don't think I ever needed to go to 3am because he just stopped waking up. He slept through most of the time by about the 16/18m that I noticed the bigger shift with the other ones, which was interesting.

I didn't sleep train, couldn't bring myself to do it. But very aware I have a good sleeper by chance/luck.

Sleep was nightmarish until 7 months when baby was in our room in their own cot.

Moved baby into own room and it got better straight away. Dropped night feeds about 8 months old. Reliably slept through from about 12 months old - with the usual hiccups when ill and going through a development leap/separation anxiety. 21 months old now and had a decent run of over three weeks with no wake ups 7pm-6am.

Thank you everyone for your comments. It's been very helpful to read.

I don't think parents who sleep train are cruel. I've read all the research, including the link someone posted upthread, and I have family members who sleep training has worked very well for. I don't think they're cruel either. Just doing what they think is best for their baby, just like I'm doing what I think is best for my baby.

I appreciate that it's a divisive choice though and people will feel judged by the implication that they haven't done the right thing.

In other news, a tooth suddenly popped through yesterday and we had a night with only one wake up!

I really wish I could find an age range that they naturally start sleeping through, but I can’t find one. I also find it demoralising that all my friends with babies the same age sleep through AND get long naps. At 11 months my girl sleeps exactly 30mins twice a day, and between 7pm-7am she wakes on average every two hours for feeds. As a single parent it’s so hard to find time to shower, cook, wash up clean etc…
The first 4months of life (literally from day 1) she would sleep a good 5 hour stretch… I didn’t expect it to get so so much worse.
I am a human soother.

But I figure it can’t last forever and she’s a super happy, healthy, clever, sweet baby.
I don’t think I could just leave her cry, that doesn’t make sense to me.
We will see if that changes!
Anyway you’re not alone x