Consequence at home for school detention?

[FlippityFloppityFlump]

My DS is in year 7 and has today had a detention for disruptive behaviour in a lesson. It's his first one at high school.

I'm wondering whether other parents give a consequence at home when there has been detention at school? If it was for uniform or something i probably wouldn't but because it is disrupting a lesson (they get chance choice and then consequence) it obviously continued.

Would you give consequence in these circumstances? Would it being the first time make a difference to you.

I want him to know we support the school and his behaviour isn't acceptable but don't know whether double consequence is right way to go this time. Or a whether to support the school by talking to him.

If it makes any difference, I pre-empt he may not take responsibility and it will tell me it's someone else's fault 🙄

This is basically how I handle it too.

One of DS's friends has a whole schedule of punishments and it doesn't seem to stop the behaviour, it just makes him more keen to hide things from his parents and ds says he gets in a really foul mood if he gets a behaviour point or detention.

I never used punishments either and my kid has been consistently praised for his good behaviour in any school he attended. He is nearly 16.
Not using punishment is a lot of work in other ways though, and requires a parent to be very truthful, consistent and reliable.

It is a state of mind in a sense and I understand that it can be really difficult to understand how this works for many parents who default to punishment.
It certainly is not about ignoring problems, rather it is about seeing things for what they really are. Why a certain behaviour is not right determines what a kid should do to make things right.
As an example, at 4 years old my kid had to limit sweets heavily due to being prone to cavities. One very early morning I found out that he had some chocolate and when asked her initially lied to me.
Our rule at the time was that, outside special occasions and holidays, he could only have sweets one day per week of his own choosing, but on that day he could have as much as he wanted, literally. Many parents would default to punishment for lying, which sets in my opinion a vicious circle.

So, as angry as I was, I took a step back and thought about the real reasons I needed him to behave in a certain way.
Which were having him to autonomously protect his dental health, and to avoid lying to me because I cannot help with things I am unaware of.
One thing it could not be allowed to be about was my feeling of anger for having been lied to and therefore slighted.
That's a bit many parents have trouble implementing, because anger takes precedence.

So I went to him and explained that I was fine with occasional exceptions, but I needed to agree to them and know about them, so I could help wash his teeth immediately after, which would tackle the only real issues, his dental health. it was my duty to keep him safe.
It never happened again and he also very rarely asked me for exceptions to be frank, which I always honoured no matter what. This is true for the sweets day thing too, some times I was so loaded with work that I only found the time late at night to go shopping for sweets of his choosing for the day after. I always did it, for many years the thing lasted, no matter how tired or busy, because it was my end of the bargain.

There are drawbacks to this approach. My son is too dutiful sometimes, and tendentially unforgiving to himself because he is wired to take responsibility.
This often leads to good results in life but can put too much pressure on a kid, dependently on their personality and what behaviours they mirror (I am tendentially a nose to the grind, dutiful person, and I came to think he has copied my behaviour a bit too much).

So, no system is perfect, it is a lot of work, but it works. You can have well behaved, self regulating kids without using punishment.

Depends what it is. Disruptive behaviour I would probably have a chat about how I expect better and consequences only if s/he starts arguing back. Forgetting pens/ homework I would probably talk to them about practical things we can do at home to make sure it doesn't happen again. Anything serious then yes I think at home consequences too.

My daughter has had one detention so far in year 7 for homework not completed. I didn’t do anything at home as it was a first offence so to speak and was an oversight on her part. If it was every week I would. She learnt her lesson to double check!
If it was anything like disruption or being rude to teachers, bullying behaviour etc then yes I would also do something at home.

My son got a run of detentions for chewing gum. I actually think gum chewing is a good reason for a detention as it gets everywhere. I took £5 off his allowance for every gum detention. Guess what? He stopped chewing. Funny that

Uptight? Maybe. When lessons are disrupted constantly, progress slows down. Guess what happens to us teachers then? We have to give up our free time to run revision and intervention classes for exam years. Being instructed to give up an hour after school to revise with a class who have set themselves back by being disruptive does make me somewhat irritated, and perhaps, yes, uptight. A punishment for us, all because children made poor choices and some parents seem to feel they are locked in a battle with us, trying to force us not to correct their child’s behaviour, but somehow still achieve good exam results.

Mine have only ever had 1 detention each. They saved being a pain in the arse to being st home 😂After each of those detentions we were just very "disappointed". That seemed to be enough.

Do schools not have behaviour standards documents now? At DT’s school at the start of each school year pupils, parents and the school signed a document whereby everyone agreed that they understood what standards were expected and the consequences of breaking the agreement?
This could be a detention, being dropped from a sports team, additional time in homework club, loss of house points, temporary and permanent exclusion from the school.

@HereBeFuckery
Being instructed to give up an hour after school to revise with a class who have set themselves back by being disruptive does make me somewhat irritated, and perhaps, yes, uptight. A punishment for us, all because children made poor choices

But they are children/ teenagers! Some, mischief and bad behaviour comes with the territory. Not all DC are goody 2 shoes and sit nicely for 6 hours and listen. It's a development and learning curve. If you want to work with the finished product, you could work with adults.

some parents seem to feel they are locked in a battle with us, trying to force us not to correct their child’s behaviour

I do agree with you to some extent. But as this thread shows, the expectation of teachers that DC should be punished twice for bad behaviour isn't always the best approach. It can damage relationships all round.

As an example, my teen DC had all privileges removed (phone, games & pocket money...) for weeks on end with the odd day or 2 of having them, for repeatedly getting detentions/ misbehaviour in school. I made a list of what behaviour results in what type of punishment, so DC had all the knowledge tools they needed. I also spoke to teachers/ school how we could improve behaviour,...
Problem with this was that DC became very withdrawn and subsequently lost some of the good friends. DC also got in with a bad crowd that taught them if you can't have X, you just get it another way.

I do know it's extreme but if you double punish, you can push them away and create far worse problems at home and at school!

My comment of earlier on this thread stands. Smaller class sizes and better training for teachers is one of the answers. But that costs money.

I wouldn’t punish but there would be a long conversation about behaviour. The DC would probably tell you they’d rather be punished.

Ahh, we had talking and reasoning. Even thinking about why certain behaviours are inappropriate!

That would be a punishment. Very easy to angrily unplug a router and orderthem go to sleep now while shaming them for keeping others up late rather than sit down and talk through their angry emotions and how to not let a game get you angry as well as discuss healthy boundaries for screen time before bed. You’re not even attempting to model good behaviour or advise your kid.

What happens is we chat about what went wrong, the lead up to it, why it happened, their feelings before, during and after. Then I help them explore how things should have gone and what support and coaching they need to avoid a repeat and get to a good response/behaviour. This is done calmly, sympathetically without anger or judgement on my end.

Punishments (which people are wrongly calling consequences) don’t help a child figure out what they should do or how to manage difficult emotions like anger or humiliation in a way that de-escalates while protecting their emotional well being. Most children who chose to be disruptive have a reason why, when you get to the root of why, only then can you start to guide them to better behaviour.

Punishments just perpetuate a battle of wills and cycle of defiance, or even worse the child starts bullying classmates- punishments tend to roll downhill from adult to child to more vulnerable child…

@LoremIpsumCici ,

You are far too sure of yourself on this issue, based on a sample size of your family.

You said earlier that if your child dropped a cup of hot liquid, then the consequence would be a mess that they would have to clear up. What if they refused?

And would you apply this to school too? If another child repeatedly disrupted a class your child was in, should there be no compulsory sanction?

And society in general? No prisons, just chat about behaviour with a counsellor?

At virtually every level in society, there are sanctions if people don’t play by the rules. From most families to schools to work places, there are imposed consequences.

Praise is really important, far more important than punishment (in teaching there is a saying ‘look for something to praise), but that doesn’t mean you don’t need boundaries and boundaries, by definition, need enforcement.

Yep our school seem very happy to hand out detentions too. ds is in year 7 and has had 3 or 4 lunchtime detentions for forgetting to bring pritstick, certain type of pens, etc - why the school doesn't have lockers these days I do not know then they could just put stuff in there instead of trawling back home, bit that's another matter I suppose. He recieved his first after school this week for bringing in the incorrect homework. He was obviously in a rush packing his bag and picked out the same colour PE homework book for his geography. Careless and something he can improve and I can improve making sure he's better organised. I'm not going to discipline him for that, but disruptive behaviour I think he knows he would be in big trouble with us. Probably taking away his phone, playstation, docking money kind of thing. As he grows older the punishment will extend to cleaning the bathroom I suppose which I know he will hate.

@Newbutoldfather

You are far too sure of yourself on this issue, based on a sample size of your family.

I wasn’t aware we were discussing this at the population level with sociological studies. No one has posted peer review research. The OP says
”I'm wondering whether other parents…”
I am another parent and I’ve said what I do. This entire thread is full of other parents like me sharing their anecdotal evidence on a sample size of their family. There are a variety of viewpoints. No one is more sure of themselves than another.

You said earlier that if your child dropped a cup of hot liquid, then the consequence would be a mess that they would have to clear up. What if they refused?
I didn’t say that. I defined what a consequence is by using a dropped cup of tea as an illustration to show that parents who punish often misuse the word consequence.

If another child repeatedly disrupted a class your child was in, should there be no compulsory sanction?
I can’t control what the school does, that’s their purview.

And society in general? No prisons, just chat about behaviour with a counsellor?
This is not relevant. Adult criminals are not comparable to developing children.

At virtually every level in society, there are sanctions if people don’t play by the rules. From most families to schools to work places, there are imposed consequences.
Yes, I agree this is how society works right now. However, I don’t agree that sanctions or punishments is the one universal tool that will create good behaviour at all levels of society. Objectively, it has mixed success and failure despite centuries of putting punishment for everyone from birth to grave for all infractions minor to horrific into practice. It is long past due, imho, to think that at the very least children shouldn’t be treated like mini-adults where correction is through punishments (albeit age appropriate punishments) because I personally don’t think the parent-child relationship should mirror the Police-Criminal dynamic.

Praise is really important, far more important than punishment (in teaching there is a saying ‘look for something to praise), but that doesn’t mean you don’t need boundaries and boundaries, by definition, need enforcement.
Yes, I agree praise is far more effective than punishment for attaining good behaviour. My parenting did have boundaries that were self-enforced. How? The best way to enforce boundaries is not for the powerful to impose them on the powerless by use of duress or sanctions, but to have a bargain or agreement that these are the boundaries for our mutual benefit which then makes the boundaries self enforcing.

@LoremIpsumCici ,

‘My parenting did have boundaries that were self-enforced. How? The best way to enforce boundaries is not for the powerful to impose them on the powerless by use of duress or sanctions, but to have a bargain or agreement that these are the boundaries for our mutual benefit which then makes the boundaries self enforcing.’

A boundary is meaningless unless it is somehow enforced. What makes it a boundary?

Again, everyone has agreements which work to everyone’s mutual benefit. That is why every school has a behaviour policy signed off by pupils and parents. The issue is when a child/pupil puts their own needs first and doesn’t respect the sanction. Ultimately it is about fairness.

What if parents buy a box of chocolates and one child swipes the lot (let’s assume it is a small box and they are not sick). What is the consequence? And if the (non) consequence is a chat, how do their siblings feel about it?

And, in the school example above, you said it was the ‘school’s purview’. But that doesn’t really answer the question. What would you want to happen to a persistently disruptive child who damaged your own child’s learning?

Doesn’t respect the agreement *

And herein lies the problem - you have outlined it so well.

Children are getting punished for minor mistakes, like a lapse of memory or forgetting something when in a hurry - as we all do - both adults and chidlren - and teachers of course! A detention for forgetting a Pritt stick is totally mad!

And then they get the same punishment for disruptive behaviour in class, which is clearly not acceptable at all, and warrants that sanction.

Making school like bootcamp where minor and normal human error is punished in the same way as major transgressions is counter productive, as well as putting genuinely well-behaved children off school as they are constantly on edge as to what they might do wrong - not what is wanted. Or else the sod-it factor kicks in - if I am going to get punished for a small thing I might as well get hung for a sheep as a lamb! - and leads to rebellious behaviour.

The basic problem lies in the fact that schools are too large and discipline becomes the over-riding priority.

@LoremIpsumCici thank you for your long and coherent answer to my question, you make some very good points.

@Newbutoldfather you make some good points too. I am enjoying the discussion.

@TranceNation you also make a good point. If teachers hand out too many detentions the the impact is lessened each time.

@Mischance ,

Schools do discuss things like equipment sanctions a lot, and I think sometimes get them wrong.

When I was teaching I didn’t really give out many equipment sanctions or uniform sanctions (it always got me negative feedback in my reviews) but I do believe in leading by example and, generally, would prefer to lend my calculator to someone who forget theirs than sanction them.

But it is a bit of a judgment call. I would sanction pupils who clearly didn’t care and always forgot things or ridiculously flouted uniform code.

These things are super tricky for teachers though. They are told to follow school policy and can get in trouble if they don’t and, if they sanction one pupil (the lazy one who is being deliberately provocative) and ignore the poor child who is terrified that they have forgotten their ruler, then it can end up in accusations of favouritism and parental complaints.

Sometimes there just isn’t a perfect solution!

Indeed not! I do appreciate that. But there is a massive difference between a human lapse of memory and deliberately not bringing things to class that are needed in order to be provocative.

This sledgehammer approach is a consequence of the size of classes and schools.

I have seen perfectly well-behaved chidlren put off secondary school because of OTT punishments for petty lapses - the sort that happen to all of us at times.

Don't get me on the subject of uniform - such a red herring when it comes to true education, and just a peg to hang rebellion on.

Yes, there would be a consequence for getting a detention in school. Knowing secondary school students as I do, parents need to hold a very firm line to stop the slippery slope of bad behaviour in school. It's always very obvious which children are over indulged and allowed to believe that they can get away with most things by bleating to parents who think their little darlings can do no wrong.

Parents that make excuses for their children make it obvious to the child that there are no real consequences for bad behaviour.

Very occasionally, the school may take an unfair line. But that would very much be the exception rather than the rule.

Radical suggestion, possibly talk to him see what’s going on is he okay? What’s happening at school?

Boundaries are often self-enforcing by mutual agreement and respect this is at all levels of society, but most especially in inter-personal relationships.

You don’t need to punish to enforce a boundary. Do you punish your friends, siblings, partner when they cross a boundary? No. Children are also human beings who can be reasoned with and you can work on boundaries with them the same as you do in any other interpersonal relationship. It is frankly sickening to me that culturally, it is still acceptable to punish children in ways we would not even think of doing to an animal we are training.

That is why every school has a behaviour policy signed off by pupils and parents yes and for over 90% of pupils and parents it is this mutual agreement and respect that self-enforces the behaviour boundaries. This includes my DC btw, only one of my DC got a detention. The detention was an unfair uniform one and the school withdrew it the next day as it was because my one DC took off her blazer because she was overheating. She actually ended up with heat exhaustion. So I told my DC she’d done the right thing to try taking off her blazer before asking to see the school nurse.

What if parents buy a box of chocolates and one child swipes the lot (let’s assume it is a small box and they are not sick). What is the consequence?

That is not a boundary I have. I have never controlled access to food in my home. If there are chocolates for sharing they are for whoever wants them, whenever they want them until they are gone. For example, every year I buy Celebrations tubs and just set them out. DC can help themselves. No one “swipes the lot” because it is a scarcity mindset that causes humans to hoard or gorge themselves on food. If you say chocolates are special, and you can only have two each once per day, that is called rationing and creates a scarcity mindset which then psychologically gets them thinking of the next time they can have chocolate. If they feel like a bit of chocolate and it’s not time for their daily ration, then they fixate on it and it becomes a craving. This then leads to swiping the lot. If it’s there and freely available, then no scarcity mindset, no cravings and no compulsion to take too much.

What would you want to happen to a persistently disruptive child who damaged your own child’s learning?
I would want the school to talk to the disruptive child and parents and depending on that perhaps assess them for being bullied by other classmates/staff, hidden SEN like ADHD or ASD meltdowns, or if there is home life stress- bereavement, divorce, DV, etc to find out why the child is being persistently disruptive.

No child goes to school intending to cause disruption for no reason. There is always a root cause, or causes. Address the cause- either by fixing or by accomodations and the learning environment is restored.

As for my child’s learning, as a parent I would be responsible to ensure they would stay on track with their education. So I would be working with them at home to ensure they understand the material in the curriculum.