Breastfeeding - where am I going wrong?

[Syp832]

I’ve just given birth to DS2, he is only 2 weeks old and I really want to breastfeed him but i have no idea how to do it.

he was jaundiced and very sleepy when born so wouldn’t breastfeed and I ended up having to top him up with formula when he was 2 days old. Ever since then breastfeeding has gone on a downward spiral and I don’t know how to get it back. He is currently bottle fed with expressed milk and formula about 50/50.

he is 2 weeks old but has only ever breastfed for 10mins or more about 3 or 4 times because he was too sleepy. But he is now beginning to wake up and be more alert, so I think he could feed well if we could just work out the latch.

it doesn’t help that the first 2 weeks of his life were hectic because we moved into a new house and had to get some urgent works done, so we haven’t had much chance to just sit skin to skin and focus on feeding. I’ve also had a toddler at home with me for the first two
weeks. But things are a lot calmer now and toddler will be going to childcare, so I think we should be able to focus on feeding. I just don’t know how to do it. I’m currently pumping but only getting 30mls or so at a time, although baby is small at 6lbs so maybe that’s not too much of an issue.

does anyone have any advice? Or like a step by step plan I can follow to get us breastfeeding? I spoke to a lactation consultant whose main advice was just to pump regularly and try putting baby to my boob but not to force it. I just don’t see how that will get us breastfeeding.

i never managed to breastfeed my eldest due to PND, and him also being too sleepy /jaundiced to feed. I just really wanted to do better by my second son, but it feels hopeless right now.

You’re the one who was going on about boobs being empty… no one else was. Taking a full feed is just that, nothing more. The word empty is not correct or useful.

Any amount is useful to a baby and that is how you build your supply. And it's not a tiny amount, I can hand express a few ounces if I do it for long enough.

I have time to argue because I'm breastfeeding my baby right now :) No worries if you're too busy though.

No, I don't disagree with that. Just your other unhelpful misinformation.

No actually all I said was not to pump before feeding as this will empty the breast - all of you taking that literally (yes it’s not technically empty there is still a tiny amount is that better??) seem to be very fixated on the word empty!

What other helpful misinformation??? You think you are the only one doing breastfeeding right do you and those of us that have been doing it for years don’t have a clue?!

But it’s empty as far as the baby is concerned and who are you the word police?!

Saying that because your breasts feel empty, you won't be producing milk, could be very very unhelpful and discouraging to a new mother. That unhelpful misinformation.

No, of course I don't think that. I'm always learning more about breastfeeding. It's an amazing thing. Years of breastfeeding experience doesn't mean there isn't more for you to learn :)

I never said that. You are just creating your own narrative now aren’t you?

You said any amount would be unhelpful and that baby wouldn't be able access it? I don't think I'm the one rewriting the narrative.

No I didn’t I think you have taken what I’ve said the wrong way.

@DeepRoseFish You said it right here?

Why do people believe milk flows like a hot water tap? Seriously. It doesn’t. After a full feed there is very little milk of any in the breast. Which is why I suggested feeding before pumping and not afterwards! Seriously talk about a pile on how ridiculous!

@Syp832 DD was tube fed in NICU for the 1st 3 weeks and I pumped a few times a day. Once we got home I managed to get her on by leaning forward and basically plonking my nipple around her mouth. Weird technique but it worked better for us. See if there is breastfeeding counselor in your area that can spend time and help you. If you don’t manage it don’t beat yourself up. DD got a pump that she could wear under her top and cut holes in her bra to fix it to her whilst she went about her chores etc!

I breastfed both of my DC. I would put their bottom lip just underneath my nipple. That makes them open their mouth and then you can guide the nipple and top of the areola into their mouth. I found they both latched well when I did that.

Very little - if any milk is available to the baby after a full feed. I did not say the breast is not making milk.

To go round telling people their milk should be flowing like a hot water tap is dangerous because they will think there is something wrong with them
when they realise this is not the case!

I think you've just misunderstood the analogy. Nobody is expecting milk to flow like a tap, even when your boobs are "full", it just means that your breasts don't ever "run out".

And I still disagree that there be "little, if any" milk available. That's not how it works, in my experience. Guess we're all different 🤷‍♀️

Christ, yes of course feeding your own 3 children counts for way more than a professional with a qualification and years of experience advising about literally hundreds of babies with various different issues, on top of feeding her own children. Bizarre!

You’re getting fixated on the hot water tap thing, but it’s the same concept in that the body is continually making more milk.

I had this and a traumatic early birth.

1. to increase milk production, you need to express or feed every 2 hours (clock begins from time of last feed/expression not after I.e 10am then 12pm then 2pm) you can make this 3 hours if this is too much, but not any longer. You need to make sure you’re feeding or expressing between 2-5am as this is when prolactin is highest.

2. milk becomes regulated at 12 weeks - it’s short term pain long term gain.

3. make sure you’re using nipple inserts for your pump! You should get your nipple measured by lactation consultant

4. latch! There’s videos on YouTube and TikTok for this, have a check. As baby gets bigger it’s SO much easier.

5. double check for tongue tie, just keep asking to make sure baby doesn’t have one as this will really affect ability to feed.

I did all the above and I’m EBF still at 8months. It’s second nature to me now. I have no pain or issues. Baby went from 2nd to 91st centile and remained consistently there despite prematurity / CS / trauma. I would say I felt quite stressed and sad about the experience until 10 weeks then it just became super easy and I am so glad I persevered. Keep an eye on your mental health though and 1) expressing causes the D-MER release which can cause depression/anxiety that’s temporary but horrible 2) you’re more susceptible to PND with your previous experience. I’d ask for mental health support now.

Nope just someone who knows that word choice is very important when supporting someone else.

I'm another here that had a baby that was sleepy at first and for the first 3 weeks she had to be stripped down to her nappy every 2-3h day and night to breastfeed and the tickling of the feet

10 minute breastfeed sounds quite good to me at that age my daughters breastfeeds were 3-5 minutes! She was a out 7 months before she did 10 minute feeds.

We had issues with her pulling on and off the breast. We went through quite a few causes before identifying the reason for her. It started in the first week and the midwife suggested it might be a slow letdown and suggested hand expressing a moment before you get them to latch so that the milk has already started flowing. I didn't have this problem as it was flowing on its own so she suggested it was a fast letdown and again suggested hand expressing until the flow was less forceful. I think this was a component of it and probably why she had short feeds. We saw the infant feeding team and they agreed I had a fast letdown and did give some position suggestions that could help with the flow and they did help a little. Eventually it got so bad that she was a nightmare to feed and she didn't feed for more than a few seconds at a time. This turned out to be due to severe silent reflux and multiple food allergies. Going on high dose reflux treatment and I started removing her allergens from my diet and finally after nearly 5 months feeding was predictable and a joy but it was tough get to that place.

I think getting some form of face to face help and advice is crucial, I had my daughter in 2020 so this was hard to come by. I had a friend who's baby was on and off the breast a lot too and for him it was due to a tongue tie, it's possible my daughter has a mild tongue tie too as now she's older her movement up and down isn't quite as mobile as her in our movement although it's getting more mobile with age. So of the 5 possible causes of the fussing on the breast I've come across for my daughter it turned out to be a combination of 3 causes potentially 4! It can take time to troubleshoot feeding and it could be a combination of things. In hindsight I don't think the tongue tie assessments she had were adequate for truly assessing if she had a tongue tie or not. Good face to face support makes all the difference! All the best of luck!

FGS this thread is exactly the reason BF failed with DD1 many years ago.
just throwing around mixed theories makes a new mum doubt everything.

we would all do better to remember that BF is a deeply personal journey.
one baby is vastly different to another.
likewise true for mum.
we’re in danger of rehashing the old model that one size fits all.

the best advise I could have been given (obviously with hindsight) would have been to trust yourself and your baby.

but how can you when everyone about you is shouting louder and louder about what worked for them.

it’s not about you.

it’s about the poster.

im quite glad having read this thread that I wasn’t an MN member when I was struggling with my first born.

you’d have made my head explode, and only make me question everything even more.

take your fight elsewhere

To give you some hope, I didn’t BF or express for my baby at all until 6 or 7 weeks and we still managed exclusive BF from about 10 weeks onwards. Absolutely; the first weeks are very important but it’s not quite as black and white for everyone as is sometimes made out.

some babies cannot get the hang of BF, my second baby was a case in point, he was hypotonic (low muscle tone), had a tongue tie, high arched palate and just could not do it at first: and by that point I was really experienced with BF after the trials of my first one.

If it’s really, really hard there may well be a reason other than bottle preference, sleepiness/ jaundice/ frustration- likely totally solveable but please don’t beat yourself up in the meantime. You’re trying really hard! That’s enough x

In person support

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all of the advice and input on this thread. I thought I’d post an update on how things have been going the past few days.

since starting this thread I decided to stop giving bottles and stop pumping and just spend a few days focussing on breastfeeding and skin to skin. I thought it was going well for the first day or two. Baby would only latch on with a nipple shield but I was getting breastfeeding sessions of 10mins to 40mins, he was waking for feeds every few hours with only 1 long sleep stretch, and it felt like he was getting some milk out of it (I thought I could hear him swallowing and there was milk around his mouth and in the nipple shield). For the first day or so, whenever I breastfed him I would start leaking from the other boob, which made me think my supply perhaps wasn’t too bad. However that had reduced recently. Baby was also doing 5 or 6 wet nappies a day which I thought was a sign he was getting enough milk.

however I did end up seeing my local infant feeding team on Wednesday as I wanted reassurance that I was ok to have taken away his bottles and stopped pumping, and also to get support with latching him on with a nipple shield. He tended to face plant on to the shield and I could never really get him to do the wide open mouth they talk about. The feeding team were really helpful and I came out of it with more confidence in breastfeeding and the approach I was taking, but at that point baby hadn’t pooed in over 24 hours (but was doing enough wet nappies). The feeding team said if he didn’t poo over the next day then I would need to top up with formula.

yesterday morning I also had someone come round to assess for tongue tie. Baby had a tongue tie that she dealt with there and then. That lady also assessed baby feeding and said his feeding issues were partly caused by tongue tie, but also because his joints and muscles were too tight, probably from being too cramped in the womb and the quick delivery I had (I went from 6cm to baby’s head coming out in about 40mins). She recommended seeing an osteopath and said that, because of this tightness, he wasn’t able to do the wide open mouth and head tilting back that is needed for breastfeeding. I am going to take him to an osteopath to hopefully get this sorted.

However she also said that if he hadn’t pooed in what had been 48 hours by this point then he probably isn’t getting enough milk and I should top up with formula and keep doing some expressing to maintain my supply. Baby hasn’t pooed in over 48 hours so I’ve now given in and am back to topping up with formula/expressed milk.

so that is where I am currently at as of today, triple feeding - breastfeeding with nipple shields, topping him after most feeds with formula/ expressed milk and also trying to express during the day.

tbh this has got me really down today. Triple feeding is where I ended up with my first son and I couldn’t do it, so ended up formula feeding. It really feels like that’s where i am
headed now, and it’s taking me time to come to terms with it. I feel quite overwhelmed with the idea of triple feeding and also worrying about whether i am doing everything needed for breastfeeding - whether the latch is right, why he can’t latch the way people say he should, am I doing enough skin to skin, is my supply enough, is he putting on weight and getting enough milk, doing enough nappies etc.

Over the past 24 hours I’ve gone between feeling intense guilt for my eldest and the time I am taking away from him by trying to breastfeed and thinking formula feeding might be better for our family, and intense guilt for my youngest at the thought of giving up breastfeeding because I’m finding it too hard to manage (rather than it being impossible to do). I so desperately wanted things to be better for my youngest son and to give him what I couldn’t for my first, but i don’t know if I have it in me to do what is needed to establish breastfeeding. And that is making me feel like such a failure right now, and I’m scared I’m going to have the same bonding problems I had with my first if I give up. I keep crying about this, but also know that I need to put into perspective and try to hold this all a bit more lightly. It’s just hard to do.

anyways I am going to carry on with the triple feeding for a few more days, or as long as I can handle, and just come to terms with the fact that breastfeeding probably won’t be part of my parenting journey and that’s ok. If breastfeeding suddenly gets easier over the next few days and I can stop the triple feeding then great, but if not then I’ll just try to embrace the positives of formula feeding and try to get over the guilt around this.

sorry for the essay!

I was on the same position - older child was mainly FF because of jaundice and not wanting to latch, so I wanted into do better with newborn. But she was jaundiced too so initially I mostly FF. Now at 9 weeks we are 70-80% BF.

What I did:

• Saw a lactation consultant weekly for BF as well as moral support
• once baby was back up to birth weight I prioritised BF, offered it as much as possible round the clock, followed by formula.
• I really tried with pumping every 2-3h initially, including a couple of sessions overnight, but it was hard to fit in with BF, formula, sterilising bottles. I couldn’t keep it up for long. My lactation consultant suggested at least one power pump a day, and also hand express milk whenever you can find time, just a few drops into a bottle, in the shower etc.
• I had low supply so I was so disappointed by how little I was pumping, just a couple ml initially, and then never more than 30ml at a time. But once I missed a feed and pumped 100ml and that gave me a lot of confidence that my supply wasn’t as low as it looked.

I wouldn’t say I had a plan apart from to keep offering the breast and start experimenting a bit to see if you can not offer formula and if baby is still happy. It was tricky as mine often fell asleep BFing and I worried they were not taking enough in, but their weight was still going up which gave me some reassurance. I have baby scales at home which I only use once a week, but I guess if I wanted to be sure I could have weighed them more often.

Gradually FF reduced. As baby was gaining weight and was content after BF I felt confident enough to gradually stop offering bottles for most of the day. In the evenings she is cluster feeding and it’s hard, plus DH wants a cuddle, so we offer a bottle in the evening (which I want to drop) and he does a bottle before bedtime so I can do bedtime with older DC.

My hope is that I can eventually express enough for a bottle DH can offer but I’m still only expressing 30-60ml

I posted before I saw your latest update OP. Do you have support from a partner? Can they take on the FF while you focus on BF and pumping?

Have you tried a Hakaa pump? It’s best used if you have a good supply, but even though mine is not great, I can stick it on one breast while I’m BF baby and I can get a bit more out with no effort.

It’s so hard isn’t it. I’m up at 4am trying to will myself to start pumping again.

If ur breastfeeding journey is more of a pain than a pleasure turning to FF doesn’t have to stop you having a great initial bond if you can find joy in other things. I did breastfeed and it went well but it seriously was just food to me and the baby nothing more (I know others have a very different experience) anyway I fell in love playing peekaboo, singing, taking walks in a wood with them in the sling and reading my favourite magazines aloud. Perhaps breastfeeding isn’t for you but 100% there are things you love you can share with your baby and maybe in doing that you will find so much joy. Oh and watching the netflix babies series with them cuddled up on my shoulder.