Disrespectful 5 year old DS

[primroseeep]

Really hoping someone can offer some good advice or solidarity..
DS is 5 and in year R. He has always been quite a challenging kid, lovely at times, but lots of energy, pushing boundaries and quite boisterous in nature.

Since age 4 he's been almost impossible. We are at a loss with how to discipline him. He is extremely argumentative and stubborn. He has recently started telling us to "shut up!" And shooosh and be quiet!
He seems frustrated and I can only think it's because he's well behaved at school and then he lets it all out at home.

I'd like to think it's a phase but if it is we're talking 2 years. DH and I are by no means soft. But he is really affecting our mental health and I feel sorry for DD age 2 (who is very calm and sweet) that she has to be around it all the time.

Can someone tell me 6 is easier than age 5?

If it's attention seeking, then rude behaviour needs to get minimal attention. Much less extreme, but my five year old is currently prone to a demanding, rude tone. It gets, at most, a calm 'Would you like to try that again?'. Always that phrase, the same tone as far as I can manage it. Often it gets only a look with raised eyebrows (this is generally enough for her to work out the problem). When she asks again more politely, then I'll engage with whatever she said.

If you think he's struggling with his sister getting attention, I would also trying praising even very small instances of him doing well whilst attention is on her.

It sounds really hard.
What are his interests, positive activities and traits - and how are you helping him develop them. Stuff with lots of physical outlet and achievement focus might suit him - channel his intelligence and energies.
What's the routine, where are the bottlenecks that are causing him frustration, what's the best activity for just after school, what changes can you make to the environment for better outcomes (more stimulation or less? Quiet or noisy, bright or dark, cuddles or space)
I would do time outs, like you, though I know they are not popular, but not in his room. I would have him sit in my eyeline, tell him firmly what is expected (give him a choice, you can behave nicely now or you will get a time out because you need to calm down from your big emotions, then when you can talk nicely we will work it out), no toys or distractions, a minute for his age, it ends with an apology and a cuddle, a minute gets added for name calling, on a timer he can see. Then it's forgotten and you move on, don't go on about it.

We have been really hot on the good praise when he does something right. Last night he had a bowl of peas after school (with butter on, he loves them), and his sister wanted some so he fed her a spoonful and we really praised him for being a "good big brother". We praise him a lot when he's good.
Thanks everyone for hints and tips. When he is rude we explain to him that it was rude behaviour and we don't speak like that in our house. But he seems to get his back up just because we've said that, it's like he recognises that we've said no and it gets his back up and sends him into argumentative mode. He seems to be unable to let us tell him what's right and wrong; like it's a control thing, and he's not in control when we pull him up on something type thing.

It is really hard, and DH and I are having a really hard time with it all. He has a second parents evening the week after next, so i am going to bring up our concerns with his teacher. I'll be interested to hear if there's any issues.

Could even be down to parenting.

It also could be ODD as the OP suspects though he is on the younger side

I would definitely start speaking to the school see exactly how he is there

Does he go to after school club every day? Is he also in breakfast club? Just wondering if you have any way of altering work hours to avoid the wrap around care? (I appreciate there may not be.) He must be knackered by the end of the school day. At that age, I found that the first thing they need straight after school is a snack - small piece of fruit and a biscuit. Then a run around on the nearest piece of open space / trip to playground / bike ride. Fresh air, tires them out physically after the mental strain of managing themselves at school all day etc.

I know this sounds simplistic but if it’s not something else like ADHD etc that might the first place to start.

He goes to breakfast club for 30 mins 3 days a week, and ASC 4 days until about 5:30.
I am in the process of amending my working hours to finish earlier so I can collect him at 4:30 instead as I have wondered if this isn't helping him. But at the same time, ASC involves sports and he loves running around so I have a feeling when I collect him early he will moan his friends are still playing. Also, he's such bad company it's almost a relief to have him at ASC as bad as that sounds on my part.

DH and I have decided to keep extremely calm (even when I've had broken sleep with the 2 year old which will be very hard for me), and almost show no emotion when he plays up as I think he feeds off raised voices as he thinks he's entering an argument. We are going to need to not give up with this, and even when one of us is having a bad day at work etc, we can't let DS be aware of this. I feel he will respond better that way.. well hopefully anyway.

I'm not getting a huge sense reading your posts, OP, of where the cuddling, hugging, laughing, joking and actively demonstrating love and enjoyment of his company (not when he's acting up but at other times) fits in with your parenting of your son. How can you create more space in your lives to enjoy being with each other? For my DC, it's snuggling up on the sofa with dinner a few times a week and watching a movie with me. What would work for your son?

Following on from my post about changing behaviours, step by step ( setting out to praise the agreed good, whilst ignoring the not so) these guides explain in more detail than I can.

You need to plan carefully, include DC and focus consistently, overtime.

You can do this!

See point 9 https://raisingchildren.net.au/toddlers/behaviour/encouraging-good-behaviour/good-behaviour-tips

And
https://thechildhoodcollective.com/2021/10/15/a-simple-strategy-to-change-your-childs-behavior-today/

It sounds like he feels quite disempowered, like nobody listens to him. Agree he probably needs more attention. Maybe discuss a plan with him at home about how you are going to help him feel more heard, do this when he isn't in the red zone at home you can give him something like a wooden spoon and when he is holding it you focus and listen quietly to what he is saying and then you can take it in turns so when you speak you hold the spoon so both parties improve listening skills. Hopefully this prevents heading into the red zone and getting angry and frustrated.

Also I'm sure he wants more agency, instead of telling him to do stuff ask him to show you how he does it, as he will feel more empowered and his become more calm and confident.

Following on from my post which had lots of advice, I asked you is he only like this in the evenings after school?

If so it's the same as what my son did after his ASC. Honestly don't even give much attention at all to his rude comments! Unless they are happening all day everyday of course but that's different. If it's just at that particular time of day then basically ignore, or just a low level "sorry you feel like that" before walking away. Discuss rudeness and behaviour at another time, not then! And of course you shouldn't raise your voice at all! Goes without saying!

Give him some slack after school. Give him yummy snacks / food, cartoons, Lego, colouring, chill out time and space with time to unwind in his home. Stay close by but not in his face. Cuddles at bedtime with stories, singing songs, funny jokes, asking him about his worry gremlins and having lovely 1-1 time.

From all you've said I don't believe he has any behavioural issues or ADHD- I'm not an assessor but honestly he sounds completely normal to me! He's doing really well at school which says all you need to know. The reason he's worst home is because that's his safe space and you are his trusted person, so he can let it all out with you.

So what is a typical evening like?

How do you greet him from ASC? so many parents interrogate this kids inadvertently, eg. How was your day, who did you play with, what did you do - pretty much the moment they step out the door if school. Try the "it's great to see you again DS, let's get you home, here I'll take your book bag - here's an apple (or choice of snack) if you're hungry."

To help give choice, my DD(5) chooses her snack that morning.

Then don't ask then anything. Literally walk home in silence and let them initiate conversation.

Gives them time to "decompress" and transition with out having to engage/think after a LONG day.

Leave the who what where when why's for dinner time or bedtime.

Shoeing no emotion when your child is playing up is not good parenting. He will just play up more until you do react. You need to talk to him, work out what the issue is and work together to fix it. You refer to him as bad company. It sounds like you really need to work on your relationship as things aren't just going to naturally get better.

If you know he feeds off raised voices then why do it?

Not every single child on this site has ADHD or autism it seems to be turning into a trend and worrying parents unnecessarily.

Could be some SEMH stuff going on there. Speak to the school for some support. You could also approach the GP. Get it sorted now OP last thing you want is this to be a problem throughout school years. Try a low demand approach and less traditional punishment and trial and error. All children are different and respond differently to certain approaches.

I also used to do big creative sticker reward charts or pebble jars, so you can visually reward the behaviour you want to see and he can work towards rewards based around fun activities with you or Dad (time and attention). No taking anything away, only using it positively.