Disrespectful 5 year old DS

[primroseeep]

Really hoping someone can offer some good advice or solidarity..
DS is 5 and in year R. He has always been quite a challenging kid, lovely at times, but lots of energy, pushing boundaries and quite boisterous in nature.

Since age 4 he's been almost impossible. We are at a loss with how to discipline him. He is extremely argumentative and stubborn. He has recently started telling us to "shut up!" And shooosh and be quiet!
He seems frustrated and I can only think it's because he's well behaved at school and then he lets it all out at home.

I'd like to think it's a phase but if it is we're talking 2 years. DH and I are by no means soft. But he is really affecting our mental health and I feel sorry for DD age 2 (who is very calm and sweet) that she has to be around it all the time.

Can someone tell me 6 is easier than age 5?

He’s horrible because he is hurting!! He needs ‘time in’ not ‘time out’! Time out threatens the primary attachment and traumatizes a child. It is incredibly cruel.

Confiscating toys teaches nothing. Look up natural consequences. Children need discipline not punishment.

The book How to Talk so Little kids will listen and listen so kids will talk is a godsend. It should be core reading for all parents.

Working on your own triggers is really important - he needs you to be unflappable.

His life was turned upside down two years ago, he needs connection and emotional safety.

How is the relationship with the 2yo? Highly recommend the book Calm Parents, Happy Siblings too

Can’t believe a child is displaying clear signs of needing more attention, reacting to cruel punishments in a developmentally appropriate way, along with the classic reaction to gaining a sibling and people are jumping straight to ‘medicate him!’ Terrifying.

Have you tried gentle parenting - not shit parenting, actual gentle parenting?
it sounds like you’re in a power battle to be honest, and I’d probably want to remove that dynamic.

Are you sure he’s getting enough / not too much sleep, healthy food, exercise, mental stimulation, attention too.

Good grief. ADHD and meds because he’s rude to his mum?

Have you spoken to his teacher OP? If it started at 4 I’m willing to bet he is picking this behaviour up at school. What’s the school like?

OP I would be wondering where he is learning the kind of language he is using? Stupid fat mummy and skanky lady are unusual in a 5 year old, where has he heard this?

He is probably enjoying getting a reaction from you both and the effect his words are having on you. Don't give it too much power - they're just words and a 5 year old doesn't understand the concept of respect. The most important thing is that you stay calm, don't show a reaction other than 'I'm not talking to you when you speak rudely, I'll talk to you again when you can be polite' then ignore the behaviour and busy yourself doing something else. The flip side of this is when he is behaving well and is polite PRAISE him like mad! Give lots of attention for the behaviour you want to encourage. Praise the good and ignore the bad. It takes time, patience and you have to be consistent but it works and it will improve.

Remember he is only 5 and behaves himself in school so when he gets home, he's tired, hungry and his impulse control is worn out. Keep activities quiet and low key, let him have a good long splash in the bath and lots of cuddles and stories at bedtime.

I think that, to a certain extent, this is 'normal' behaviour. He's seeking attention.and expressing anger/frustration. I once heard some advice that you shouldn't take anything a small child says personally. I have a 4 year old and 8 year old. Both lovely, happy children. 8 year old has always been hot headed and can get really angry, sometimes shouts 'I hate you' and 'idiot' etc. 4 year old more gentle character but can still be rude when upset. I don't tolerate hitting but if they are rude with their words I just try not to take it personally, try to give comfort as they are going through an emotion, and then later explain to them that they need to express their anger in a different way (e.g. by saying I hate this, I'm really angry right now).

I don’t know what the underlying cause is because I don’t know OP’s DS, but if OP requests and ADHD assessment and it isn’t ADHD, then she can investigate other possibilities.

I also think it’s important to note that, ‘it’s not ADHD, it’s’

-attention seeking
-enjoying getting a reaction
-not enough sleep
-not getting on with sibling
-swearing/shouting

are all potential indicators of hyperactivity and inability to regulate, therefore it would be remiss not to investigate ADHD.

I second ADHD. My youngest has extreme emotions and can be challenging but to a lesser extent than this or he can be rude but doesn't say unkind things or name call. He is being assessed for ADHD.

@BarkLife can I ask what was life changing about the assessment? We're waiting for our assessment for DS8 right now and wondering what the outcome will be and what changes this means. Thanks

@Powderblue1

The first day he took the meds, he said, Mummy, I can concentrate in school. Since then, he's achieved greater depth in all of his SATs and is scoring top marks in Year 7 assessments. Before Year 3, he regularly fell off his chair, disrupted lessons and injured himself. He's also happier, and more reflective, and way less impulsive/emotionally overreactive.

@colouroftherainbow

Edit: I’ve deleted my reply because it wasn’t really what I wanted to say.

Your job is to diagnose ADHD, and I’m grateful for that. Mine is to signpost help. Because this is a forum, I’m blunter than I would be IRL. I would only ever suggest that ADHD is something worth investigating to the parents and children I look after, I would never diagnose (I can’t), or suggest a child ‘has’ ADHD. However, I have never filled out a screening form that didn’t strongly indicate ADHD (inattentive, hyperactive or combined).

You have edited this to read nothing like the original post which is entirely not the point of editing posts

If you go back your earlier posts, you will see you absolutely have suggested this child ‘has’ ADHD.

I stand by the fact that you are in no position to say ADHD is something the OP needs to pursue

@BarkLife brilliant thank you. My son is in year 3 and thankfully really academic but he can be disruptive in class, not in a naughty way more so he can't sit still and chat and he's so easily distracted. He also struggles with attention and listening at home. We never thought of medicating though, you've given me food for thought.

Why are you using the same technique at home as they do at school this could cause major issues for the child going to school, I would cut that out straight away.

Not everything is down to ADHD or autism I wish people would stop doing this, it can be a normal part of growing up.

I have autism and adhd in my family, I don't think my DS has either. I think he is a stressy argumentative character who is extremely bright, social and easily frustrated. He is 5 years old, and I can understand that this behaviour at 10 years old would indicate a problem. But at 5? Aren't there a lot of 5 year olds with issues around emotional regulation and good behaviour. Isn't it part of growing up?

Having said all of that, I have wondered if DS had ODD as he seems to put up a wall at the simplest demands at times, but only at home, and only when he's being a miserable buggar.

I think he's picked up skanky lady, fat lady etc from after school club, which is 4-11 year olds. He loves to watch the older kids and listens to everything they say.

The odd thing with DS is I have always felt he's wiser and older than his years. And when he's in a good mood he's just amazing to be around, charming, cool, clever and funny. When he's in a bad mood; he's just impossible!

Is he like this at school as well? Bexause that makes a big difference

No, first parents evening told us he was one of the brightest in the class and there was no issues at school. He is popular with his friends.
He tends to be a bit more naughty at after school club, but I think that sounds quite common with him and his friends from what the leader tells me die to tiredness.

He had an inset day with my parents fairly recently and they had a great day with him. But I noticed when I picked him up from their house, in the car he started to play up, almost as if he was letting it all out again.

Is he fighting for attention with his 'sweet ' sister? Children prefer any kind of attention-negative as well as positive-to not enough.

Yea I think he is attention seeking. But we give him huge amounts of attention. He doesn't stop talking so he gets more attention than his sister, who's easy going and just does her own thing.
It's like he wants us to give her no attention.
And this is the issue, what he wants from us and his standards are not realistic, but it's impossible to explain that to a 5 year old, so it's just one massive battle probably 3/4 of the time.

But of course there is a whole, very lucrative industry playing into the minds of parents. Private assessments, tutoring, indie schooling, 1-1 support…..

And sometimes ( and I say sometimes, because I am experienced in full, professional diagnosis of children with ASD/ADHD) the diagnosis is an excuse for ineffective parenting.

Even with a diagnosis, there isn't a miracle that happens. Children with ASD/ADHD, like every child, do better with parental support, parents who learn about their child, who work to understand and teach them strategies to support their development. It all takes time.

The sexist and awful language he's using against you is really bad. 'skanky lady'? Where did he get that from?

I honestly think you have to try just totally ignoring him if he's rude. Just say firmly 'if you say rude things then people won't want to talk to you and won't like you anymore. We won't talk to you now as you're being horrible'.

I can't believe there isn't something else going on though, I'd say that behaviour is a lot for a five year old.