Disrespectful 5 year old DS

[primroseeep]

Really hoping someone can offer some good advice or solidarity..
DS is 5 and in year R. He has always been quite a challenging kid, lovely at times, but lots of energy, pushing boundaries and quite boisterous in nature.

Since age 4 he's been almost impossible. We are at a loss with how to discipline him. He is extremely argumentative and stubborn. He has recently started telling us to "shut up!" And shooosh and be quiet!
He seems frustrated and I can only think it's because he's well behaved at school and then he lets it all out at home.

I'd like to think it's a phase but if it is we're talking 2 years. DH and I are by no means soft. But he is really affecting our mental health and I feel sorry for DD age 2 (who is very calm and sweet) that she has to be around it all the time.

Can someone tell me 6 is easier than age 5?

What consequences for being rude?

He is given a time out if he says it a second time, which he almost always does.
Time outs usually result in him getting even more worked out, he'll repeatedly shout shit up, stupid fat mummy, skanky lady, etc etc from his room. Timeouts don't really work. We also confiscate a toy and sometimes 2 or more if he keeps going.
When he's in the "red zone" as they call it at school, he becomes impossible to get out of it. But equally he won't leave us alone so it becomes a heated mess.

This is extreme behaviour for a five year old.

Investigate ADHD now; go to your GP and ask for Right to Choose. Medication is an option and will transform his behaviour.

@BarkLife I don't think it's ADHD, just very rude and disrespectful..

So you have a 2 year old dd and it's been going on for two years - I'd say that's your answer. I'd say he needs more of your time and attention.

I didn’t think it was ADHD, but DS1 was diagnosed when he was 7 and it was life-changing for him.

I’m a SENDCo, I see a lot of this behaviour. It’s always ADHD.

This sounds so tough for you and your family. Im sorry you're having to face these challenges.

What you've described 'He seems frustrated and I can only think it's because he's well behaved at school and then he lets it all out at home' is really common in kids with ADHD and sometimes autism. They mask.. it's like they use all of their resources to keep in line in school, and once they're home in their safe space they just explode with the heaviness of their day. It's exhausting and can cause anxiety and other issues over time. I would take steps to explore this just in case that's what's going on as it would be crucial to get him help.

Does he gets lots of fun 1:1 time with parents individually?

Before assuming he’s got mental health problems, I’d be wondering…
-does he get enough one on one attention, exercise, sleep and the right foods? At age five where on earth has he picked up those insults from?

how much screen time does he have, what’s he watching? What are his friends like?

Also what long term consequences are there? If my dc had spoken to me like that, there’s have been no TV for a week at that age. Possibly also time to reintroduce a reward system.

They only say what they have heard elsewhere. Where is he hearing language like "shut up", "stupid fat mummy" and "skanky lady"?

I agree he may need some 1:1 tume and to be boosted a little. Is her compared to his lovely, calm, little sister?

DS was horrid at school after being an angel in school all day. He is not neuro-divergent.

Do something different as your current approach isn't working. I agree you should try more attention, especially 1 to 2. Zero tolerance to name calling though. Is he copying someone else or hearing tv programmes like Eastenders for example? Is DH totally supportive? My DS would have never crossed DH like that as we encourage respect for each of us always.

Google RAD and check in with your GP / second the right to choose route. After a day of compliance and masking, he's letting loose at home. We had two boys, 16 months apart, doing it.

We did lots of post school physical activity and snacks in the car en route!! They are now 18 and nearly 17. It's hard but brilliant.

RSD, typo!!

Any idea where he's getting the language from? Things like skanky lady and stupid fat mummy aren't everyday things to say for child that age and must be coming from somewhere?

I agree with others who say he may need more 1 to 1 time and possibly another outlet. My DD started karate at around that age and it's a really good way off burning off steam and helps teach respect and discipline too.

I have a 6 year old who ‘sees red’ when unhappy and struggles with his temper. He screams in frustration, throws things, pushes things over, slams doors when really angry.

Like pp, I would also be questioning where the insults have come from. They have to hear them somewhere to repeat it. Fortunately he’s not been exposed to that so ‘I don’t like Mummy’ is the worst the insults get but I completely empathise with the behavioural struggles.

In our case, we can see it’s emotional regulation he struggles with when unhappy. We spend lots of time talking about better ways to deal with it when he’s in a calm state, what else we can do when unhappy, how to make better choices etc. It’s a slow road but there are definitely big signs of improvements - the other day he threw something in anger and the contents spilt everywhere and then realised the error very quickly and started picking it up again which wouldn’t have happened a few months back.

As others have said, lots of opportunities to burn physical energy and one to one time with adults helps massively too.

Im satisfied there’s no ND issues with my child, he just struggles with emotional regulation when unhappy and will grow out of it. He can hold it together at school and with support, I’m sure he will be fine at home

Edit to add - punishments like toy removal doesn’t work. We also tried many times but it just leaves them feeling like they have nothing to lose and behave worse. Lots of praise works wonders - each time he does control himself, we make a point of telling him how great that was to encourage him to do it again

With experience in education too…. It really isn't always ADHD!

We must stop jumping to ADHD/ASD for every child who is learning to regulate.

I would focus on the positive @primroseeep
One tiny thing to start with that you want to support him to change.
Agree one with him, praise him for achieving whilst ignoring all other behaviours, unless unsafe.
Once he has achieved the first, move on to another. He gains a sense of success, which supports him to change his other behaviours.

This turns around the negative cycle that you are all in.

Long term consequences don't work at the age they can't connect the punishment to the crime for that period of time.

Are there times when he's not like that, ie when he's happy, lovely to be around? If so, when are those times? Is it when he's well-rested, at the weekend, when spending 1-1 time with you, when doing an activity, when running around outside, or when away from his sister, when colouring, something else?

I'd be inclined to work out that part and then try to do more of that thing - eg perhaps more quality time with one parent or both? Or more sleep? Or more time away from dusted? Or more time outside / less screen time?

I also think after school in year R is a hot spot due to decompression so I'd be making everyone's life easier and being a bit more relaxed at that time of day in particular. My son used to call me a poo poo head in Reception after school and I'd just say ok then, oh dear, sorry you feel that way, as I knew he was exhausted and wrestling with the adjustment and transition, and he never ever spoke to me like that at other times, and was normally a delight.

Does he do after school club and stay late? Or do you pick him up at 3ish?

If he's at after school club they get tired and hungry so I'd have some yummy snacks lined up ready to go as soon as you see him followed by a yummy favourite tea / picky plate. Then maybe set up a few gentle toys for him to play as soon as he walks through the door (Lego / train / colouring whatever he enjoys) and switch on some cartoons. Let him decompress. It's tricky but can his sister be occupied away from him for the first while when he gets home, either with other parent or if that's not possible sitting having her tea or doing her own activity in a different area, so he gets some space? (Only if you think this could be overwhelming him).

If you do suspect that these behaviours started around the time his sibling arrived then the timeouts and punishments whereby he's put by himself will feel like further rejection.

I do think it's fine to say "we don't call each other names / we speak kindly to each other" but imo timeout and naughty step has been debunked due to the impact on the child's self perception. They are not mature enough at that age to reflect upon their behaviour in solitude.

No doubt others will be on to say consequences are the main priority and he should be punished but I would honestly be wanting to look at the root of the issue, which will always be his feelings, and find a way to support him there.

I know everyone always recommends this book but if you haven't read it then Phillippa Perry does have helpful wisdom on this in The book you wish your parents had read.

There is a reason ADHD assessments require input from so many different people and take so long to do. Most people will identify with some ADHD traits, it doesn’t mean they have ADHD

It can’t be diagnosed by one short summary from an individual so I couldn’t agree more that posters really need to stop the armchair diagnoses

I have a daughter who can be like this ay 5, the only thing I'm questioning with your son is the language. Don't get me wrong, my daughter can hit, punch, kick, throw, say she hates me but I don't know about the skanky lady stuff.

Oh, and we noticed an improvement at 5 and a half. Both she and my older son changed a lot, suddenly, halfway through year 1. Reception was rough in our house both times. To the point where we asked their teachers what was going on and they said they thought it was probably normal.

I would invest in some new bath toys and try putting him in a warm bath before dinner as soon as you get home, if you can. Some children find playing in water very calming.

Could be ADHD, ASD, ODD, attachment Disorder, bullying, sleep deprivation, excessive screen time, family dynamics, little shit syndrome.

Your comment is very worrying considering your role.

As pp have said you need to try different behaviour strategies (I'd recommend positive ones).

Humour can be really effective with stroppy young children: all 3 of mine have gone through (usually short) rude phases of telling me "no" or "shoosh" or whatever. Try responding with 2 unlimited "no limit", if they tell you "shoosh" speak in a whisper but a really silly voice. Really what you want is to get them out of their strop - telling them off/punishing them won't do that.

You could also implement a decent reward system for behaviour you do want. I use "bead pots" - they need 5 beads for 10 mins of tv/ipad (no beads = no tv) - they gain beads for being good/helpful eh getting dressed nicely, brushing teeth without arguing, opening curtains etc. Beads can be removed for rudeness (we're in a saying poo, bum, willy phase atm) etc. It works for all 3 (boys age 3, 7 and 8, middle one with ADHD and ASD). They get around 20 mins screen time a day on school days, probably 30 at weekends.