Page 3 | Extremely bright, extremely difficult child.

Original poster

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 22:27

tothelefttotheleft · 13/01/2025 22:10

@12345NumberBlocks

I recognise the sibling stuff. The first professional we had involved was because I was worried my older child was going to seriously hurt my younger child. Mine have a five year gap.

I am also seriously worried about this. I am also worried about when my 2 yo isn’t a cute and squishy ball on legs who doesn’t put up a fight. I am worried about occasional, impulsive, poorly thought out violence turning into proper, sustained violence.

OP posts:

Worriedmotheroftwo · 13/01/2025 22:30

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 17:47

I want to know what your extremely bright, ADHD or AuDHD child was like? Particularly round the age some behaviours stop being ‘normal’, so age 5, 6, 7 I suppose.

Really want to hear examples as opposed to a whole big story from us, but my 5 year old is both very bright and very, very difficult. His maths skills are off the chart, reading is effortless, his verbal skills and reasoning are adult like. He has a near perfect memory.

He is also explosive, impulsive, hyperactive, selfish, obsessed with winning and in need of constant, constant attention. We are quite broken by his behaviour at home. We’ve done some parenting courses which, while useful for us, haven’t done anything to change his behaviour.

School get a toned version from him on both fronts. They are aware he is bright but not the full extent. They get some silliness, difficulty with sharing and some emotionality but not to the extent we do. They were a bit 🤷🏻‍♀️ when we mentioned neurodiversity.

Does anyone recognise this? Thanks.

Oh that's exactly my son. He's 6. Insanely clever (incredible at maths, best reader in his year, and really good at things like chess) but a very challenging child in so many ways. ASD and ADHD plus very very anxious. Has been a LOT better since he's been in Year 1... thank goodness. He's calmed down a bit. Explosions were very bad age 3 to 5.
Oh and obsessed by winning- yes. If he's not the best, he's angry about it.

His little brother is the complete opposite.

Worriedmotheroftwo · 13/01/2025 22:31

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 22:27

I am also seriously worried about this. I am also worried about when my 2 yo isn’t a cute and squishy ball on legs who doesn’t put up a fight. I am worried about occasional, impulsive, poorly thought out violence turning into proper, sustained violence.

Show quote history

If it helps, I used to be worried about the same thing but now my eldest never lays a finger on his brother. His brother is 4. If anything, it's the other way round now!

Original poster

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 22:33

LazJaz · 13/01/2025 22:13

Watching with interest, and sharing a bit of our story in case helpful to the OP.

DS is slightly younger that your son OP, but sounds very similar. DS has an ASD diagnosis as of October.
Hugely bright - speaks like an adult really, is 4. Incredible recall, maths, great cross conceptual thinking etc. When comfortable his social skills are pretty age typical, although he can be very bossy with friends and struggle with sharing.
Also has PDA type presentations that have driven me to have years of therapy and ultimately a month of what I can only describe as respite care, he was excluded from school aged four and before one of his teachers at nursery became his advocate he was asked to
leave there too - aged just 2.

Since having his diagnosis confirmed we have made changes to our parenting on the recommendation of the diagnosing consultant who said that PDA can be dialled up or down by the parenting style that parents use. We still have a lot to learn but are aiming to combine low demand parenting with clear co sistent and calmly held boundaries. It’s about reducing anxiety in the child as much as possible.
We have also made some hard and fast rules (for us no TV in the week was one that made a great positive difference) and thereby increased routine.
We have seen huge positive changes in our child since we changed our style and I don’t even know how dramatic a change it was for us- largely around the language we use, and the way in which we cue the boundaries.

Before these changes everything was a battle,we hadn’t washed his hair in about 3 months because of the meltdowns, bedtime was sometimes taking an hour, meltdowns could be violent. Very high anxiety, clinginess, needed to be in charge… etc. It was really hard. It had been off and on like this for years - then coupled with the high intelligence this resulted in no one believing me when I said ASD, and being gas-lit by several key people.

I’m sharing all this because what you describe sounds like my autistic highly intelligent son, and while you say the school wouldn’t agree that’s likely to be due to their lack of knowledge. Lack of knowledge in some schools is shocking - I had the head of our previous school tell me DS had a global developmental delay - he had that week taught himself about solar eclipses and black holes….
You do not need the school to push for the diagnosis. You can push for it via the NHS (if you can wait) or privately (if you can afford it) there are websites (such as the AET) that can support you in understanding what evidence you need to support your view that the diagnosis is necessary and others (possibly IPSEA) can provide letter templates etc to support with various applications.
The PDA society website has also been very helpful.

The “divergent conversations” podcast has also been helpful - in particular the mini series on “twice exceptional” or 2E kids. Once I started reading about 2E kids my son made more sense and my parenting became more appropriate and things have started to ease on all fronts

feel free to PM me

This is so insightful, thank you.

I’ll ask these questions here but please feel free to PM me if you’d rather:
How did you go about getting a diagnoses - private or NHS?
Is he at mainstream school? What support does he get?
I’m not even sure if I want to ask this as the process looks so utterly horrendous but I’ve been reading about EHCPs tonight - does your son have one?

I need some respite. I feel on the brink of burn out myself. I regularly fantasise about packing my stuff and the 2 year old into the car and going away. I told my mum this in a moment of despair and she said she wouldn’t blame me if I did, which broke me a little further to be honest.

OP posts:

Worriedmotheroftwo · 13/01/2025 22:34

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 20:37

No. I’m really not sure I’ll convince school. They have children there who clearly have great need and my son is under their radar. Can I just bypass them and go to the GP? Or go privately - do these assessments even hold weight? We did the parenting courses as I just assumed we’d be blamed as he’s a lot more manageable in school than at home.

Show quote history

Go privately. If you can afford it, obviously. We took our son to see a private psychotherapist and also a private clinic psychotherapist. Saw the latter for a while. Expensive, but we managed to get some DLA money which went towards the cost. He also sees an OT and a SALT each week; the OT is especially helpful. About to start seeing an ELSA.

Worriedmotheroftwo · 13/01/2025 22:39

LazJaz · 13/01/2025 22:13

Watching with interest, and sharing a bit of our story in case helpful to the OP.

DS is slightly younger that your son OP, but sounds very similar. DS has an ASD diagnosis as of October.
Hugely bright - speaks like an adult really, is 4. Incredible recall, maths, great cross conceptual thinking etc. When comfortable his social skills are pretty age typical, although he can be very bossy with friends and struggle with sharing.
Also has PDA type presentations that have driven me to have years of therapy and ultimately a month of what I can only describe as respite care, he was excluded from school aged four and before one of his teachers at nursery became his advocate he was asked to
leave there too - aged just 2.

Since having his diagnosis confirmed we have made changes to our parenting on the recommendation of the diagnosing consultant who said that PDA can be dialled up or down by the parenting style that parents use. We still have a lot to learn but are aiming to combine low demand parenting with clear co sistent and calmly held boundaries. It’s about reducing anxiety in the child as much as possible.
We have also made some hard and fast rules (for us no TV in the week was one that made a great positive difference) and thereby increased routine.
We have seen huge positive changes in our child since we changed our style and I don’t even know how dramatic a change it was for us- largely around the language we use, and the way in which we cue the boundaries.

Before these changes everything was a battle,we hadn’t washed his hair in about 3 months because of the meltdowns, bedtime was sometimes taking an hour, meltdowns could be violent. Very high anxiety, clinginess, needed to be in charge… etc. It was really hard. It had been off and on like this for years - then coupled with the high intelligence this resulted in no one believing me when I said ASD, and being gas-lit by several key people.

I’m sharing all this because what you describe sounds like my autistic highly intelligent son, and while you say the school wouldn’t agree that’s likely to be due to their lack of knowledge. Lack of knowledge in some schools is shocking - I had the head of our previous school tell me DS had a global developmental delay - he had that week taught himself about solar eclipses and black holes….
You do not need the school to push for the diagnosis. You can push for it via the NHS (if you can wait) or privately (if you can afford it) there are websites (such as the AET) that can support you in understanding what evidence you need to support your view that the diagnosis is necessary and others (possibly IPSEA) can provide letter templates etc to support with various applications.
The PDA society website has also been very helpful.

The “divergent conversations” podcast has also been helpful - in particular the mini series on “twice exceptional” or 2E kids. Once I started reading about 2E kids my son made more sense and my parenting became more appropriate and things have started to ease on all fronts

feel free to PM me

Ahhh this resonates so much, especially the gaslighting from health care professionals!!
My son was diagnosed last year through 'Right to Choose-. Look it up. It's free and paid for by the NHS but the assessment is done privately. I've had no issue with his diagnosis being accepted anywhere, and it was the gateway to his DLA funds, his EHCP and his ADHD medication (just started this).

Wbeezer · 13/01/2025 22:43

I discovered Mumsnet while searching for answers about how to parent my explosive 8 year old. He's 26 now and still difficult and frustrating at times although he does try not to be, still at home.
Push for a diagnosis as early at possible, I wish I had. DS1 was not cooperative about it though.
DS1 got a lot calmer when he was of an age to make his own decisions and choices and once we stopped trying to " train" him.
I think he has Au/ADHD with a PDA profile but only officially has an ADHD dx.
ADHD meds helped him a lot controlling his temper and persevering with tasks.
He does not have all the life skills he needs yet but is at uni. I'm bracing myself to push him to learn more cooking skills...
It's been a very hard road at times and has taken a toll on me, I had to stay at home and at times have been quite low but my marriage and relationships with all three kids has somehow survived intact. I do tend to have pangs of jealousy about friends who's kids are all independent. I'd like a rest!

Genevie82 · 13/01/2025 22:59

overmydeadbody · 13/01/2025 18:32

Yes I can relate, my youngest is 7 and it's utterly exhausting. He loves being outside though and loves exercise and physical activity and sport and that's our main way of coping, we are always out with him doing very physical things. As am example on Saturdays he does parkrun (5km in half an hour), then an hour of football, then an hour of swimming, and he'd still be outside in the garden after that if he can be. As many after school sports clubs as we can get him in.

He hates not having a plan and the unknown, so we now have a very detailed whiteboard on the kitchen with the whole week planned out for him to see, who's dropping him at school, who's picking him up, what clubs he has, what the weekend plans are, what the menu is, everything goes on the board and this has really helped him cope. I go through it with him on a Sunday night for the week ahead.

Christmas was exhausting as he was so wound up. Term time is much calmer.

Such good advice for ND children like this. OP to add sleep is extremely important - late bedtimes even by 30mins for children like this or tiredness will add highly to emotional outbursts and behaviour the next day.

ShalalaIa · 13/01/2025 23:18

To @12345NumberBlocks and all you out there, you sound like amazing, caring parents with a difficult job to do. Hats off to you all xx

WhatsitWiggle · 13/01/2025 23:26

DD was diagnosed autistic at 14 - she could hold it together at school but home was awful. A few months after that I found At Peace Parenting on Instagram who talked about the child needing to win at games and a light bulb went off. My daughter ticks so many boxes for PDA and it's totally changed how I need to parent.

I'm not there yet, I make mistakes daily, but understanding how her brain works and doing my best to not make a perceived demand is very gradually helping.

IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls · 13/01/2025 23:31

12345NumberBlocks · 13/01/2025 18:12

And re: exercise.

His physical energy is endless. But it’s really hard to channel it. He sniffs out exercise dressed up and refuses. Any repeating event that requires effort is a chore. He just wants to tare around the house.

I don't know if you know but having ADHD can be exhausting

cordiality · 13/01/2025 23:41

Sorry if someone has already said this upthread, I've just whizzed through the replies, but check out resources for 'twice exceptional' or '2e' kids, or 'dual exceptionality'. It doesn't solve anything, but really helps with understanding, I've found. Still struggling with my 13 year old highly gifted DS with ADHD, but meds have really helped, and massive support from school - just because they save the worst behaviour for home doesn't mean that they're not struggling with the school environment.

redannie18 · 14/01/2025 09:12

Oh gosh this so reminds me of my eldest. He was incredibly difficult as a child, everyone said "oh thats just what kids of x age are like" so for years I pushed through, calls from the school, having o avoid shops and socialising, bloody parenting classes, just wondering why this was all so hard. Then about age 11 the wheels fell off and eventually after another two years he was dx with autism, but he really hardly attended secondary school at all. During this non school time we had to throw the rule book out the window, and work out ways that worked for us, doing separate things for the kids, solo holidays to get a break, low demand parenting, etc etc.I wish I'd done this all sooner and stopped trying to make him (and us) "normal" and "acceptable". I was so worried about the judgement of others.

I have a friend who is a psychologist who said "all the things that are difficult to parent are usually fantastic skills for an adult to have" and I could see that, he was smart and charming and had an interesting way of looking at things, and an unmatched determination. However, managing that did nearly break me.

I am happy to say that now he is nearly out of his teens he is doing well, he knows his limits and how to manage his life to try to avoid "freaking out" and burning out. He is studying a very geeky subject at college and is extremely determined to get a well paid job. Lives at home but fairly independently, has friends and a girlfriend, socialises, goes out, has a part time job that he is enjoying and doing well at. He does need a bit more support than other kids his age, but overall he is doing great. The autonomy that adulthood offers him suits him much better.

I say all this to say to you just keep asking for help, be that parent, trust your gut, read lots of books but just pick the bits that work for you, ask you kid, sometimes they know the answer of how to make things better, don't be ashamed, get a thick skin.

Take care of you x

redannie18 · 14/01/2025 09:20

Nn9011 · 13/01/2025 20:38

The needing routine but hating it is probably the Audhd - as an adult it's still very hard. The best thing I've been learning is to not have to follow the norms just because others say they are how things should be done. For example I find if I want to do skincare at night I have to do it hours before I'm even thinking about bed or I can't do it.

I know that's a silly example but it's just to demonstrate how hard it can be even as an adult. Transitions can be tough, like if you think of getting ready for school as 3 steps he probably sees if as 20. If you can minimise the steps to do something that might help. Bedtime can be big in this, try changing up what you think you should do. Try seeing if he need 15 mins of running around playing to switch his brain off, or could getting into pajamas after dinner so that's one less thing at bedtime? Maybe rather than a sudden announcement of it's bedtime and go, set timers to say in 15 mins we're going to go get ready for bed and have a visual timer (if he can't tell time, you can get hourglasses for kids which work great).

OT should definitely be able to help with sensory things like weighted blankets etc..

The meltdowns after school are sadly very common. Being in school all his energy is being used to wrap him tightly and then when he leaves it's like an explosion of emotions. It's different with each child - for some coming home and going to a dark room and chilling is the way today deal, others they need higher stimulation.

Sorry if I'm just listing things at you but it's so hard as not one size fits all. I imagine you're so exhausted trying to figure it out and if I can give any advice it's that ND kids are so sensitive and aware of the emotions around us. If at all possible make sure you're getting some emotional regulation so that you can look after yourself in the tough times. It's so much worse if you're overwhelmed when they are ❤️❤️

Show quote history

Ha I'm the same with skincare, I didn't put 2 and 2 together 😂

Agree about removing steps. I helped my son with his clothes and making him breakfast and taking it to him until he was FAR TOO OLD for that, and I had a voice in my head saying "you shouldn't be doing that, he'll never learn". But of course one day he just got himself breakfast, one day it just happened. Now I just step in at times of stress when he needs a bit more help, e.g. if. he has an exam and I can see he's frazzled.

kaela100 · 25/01/2025 08:55

My eldest is exactly the same as was I and I suspect I've always had ADHD.

For her organised physical activity is non-negotiable. I book in something everyday even if it's just softplay

Original poster

12345NumberBlocks · 25/01/2025 21:06

Since posting this, we’ve booked a private autism assessment and an OT assessment both at home and school. Thankfully the OT assessment is happening next month but there is a bit of a wait for the autism assessment. The teacher and the SENCO clearly think I’m bonkers, but have agreed to fill in whatever forms are needed.

Completely out of nowhere DS sank his teeth into my arm tonight. Literally just turned round and bit me. He was mortified and cried his eyes out. But there was absolutely no empathy or consideration of how I felt. He was upset because of how his actions would affect him, ie what consequences he would have to have. He acts like a child with attachment issues. He seems to get no pleasure from DH or I and only wants to intensely use us for his own regulation and needs. On the odd occasion he seems to want physical nurturing, he’ll keep his body completely stiff, stick his face right in mine and stare me down intently while growling. It’s heartbreaking.

OP posts:

LGBirmingham · 25/01/2025 21:35

I don't have anything to say that's helpful but mine is younger than yours and I have wondered if he may have adhd since he was a baby. The more I read about ADHD/Autism and the more I talk to my friends, many of which think they may have either condition, it just seems that all the really clever people have one of these.

myplace · 25/01/2025 21:40

I’m sorry. That’s upsetting. He may well get there, but is overwhelmed by the enormity of what happened. He’ll work his way though all the implications, rather than immediately getting it in the way another child might.

Try not to shame him for not empathising with you, or exaggerate your hurt and upset in an attempt to help him understand. Better for someone to model how to respond- oh no, number! Your poor arm! Does it hurt? What can I do to help you feel better?

My DS did that to his little brother. I was horrified. It seemed so mean and spiteful. Actually it was probably sensory seeking behaviour, processing emotion by ‘doing’ something. Adults but their nails or chew their lip in a similar way.

Sensory seeking children often really appreciate chew toys. They have them in children’s educational supplies, or just search Amazon. He may really respond well with them.

myplace · 25/01/2025 21:41

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=sensory+chew+necklace&crid=1GCH94S5H3I3F&sprefix=sensory+%2Caps%2C93&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_6_8

Vinvertebrate · 25/01/2025 22:30

AuDHD 8 year old here with PDA profile. Sounds v similar to your DS. He’s a maths whizz and reads like an adult, photographic memory, etc. He’s dyspraxic with poor motor control, though, meaning his handwriting is absolutely terrible. If he can’t be better than everyone else, then he just refuses to engage, so we’re currently juggling remedial English/handwriting lessons with more advanced maths. He has EHCP and is in a specialist school for ND kids without LD’s, which unfortunately are rare as rocking horse shit.

I know you mention booking an assessment already, but I highly recommend the Lorna Wing Centre if you’re anywhere near Kent.

It remains to be seen whether DS’ ADHD meds improve his PDA traits, because he refuses to take the tablets and I don’t always have the stomach/energy for a battle about it tbh. Low demand makes a huge difference ime.

Good luck 💐

lakesandplains · 27/01/2025 08:49

@12345NumberBlocks my younger one used to bite when really upset - she never intended to hurt me, it was a loss of control and partly the upset was she knew she was out of control. Really difficult.

You do see a lot more of this behaviour when you don't have adapted strategies - although, it's hard to know they're going to get overwhelmed sometimes until it happens.

lakesandplains · 27/01/2025 08:50

Isn't he too young to have effective empathy skills in any case?

lakesandplains · 27/01/2025 08:52

Tactile avoidance, you may want to research - older one is like that. Contact has to be on her terms. Get used to schools thinking you're bonkers if your kids mask!

Hopefulmam13 · 02/04/2025 21:15

My 8 year daughter is awaiting an adhd diagnosis and the constant need for attention , the constant demands,the inability to get dressed /brush her teeth without constant prompts is exhausting! I’ve read so many books listened to so many podcasts about what to do but nothing works for us.She hates exercise other than swimming which is apparently well known for helping adhd kids as is Karate/martial arts etc

tellmesomethingtrue · 02/04/2025 21:39

Sounds just like my son who was diagnosed with autism and PDA aged 8.

Extremely bright, extremely difficult child.

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