Extremely bright, extremely difficult child.

[12345NumberBlocks]

I want to know what your extremely bright, ADHD or AuDHD child was like? Particularly round the age some behaviours stop being ‘normal’, so age 5, 6, 7 I suppose.

Really want to hear examples as opposed to a whole big story from us, but my 5 year old is both very bright and very, very difficult. His maths skills are off the chart, reading is effortless, his verbal skills and reasoning are adult like. He has a near perfect memory.

He is also explosive, impulsive, hyperactive, selfish, obsessed with winning and in need of constant, constant attention. We are quite broken by his behaviour at home. We’ve done some parenting courses which, while useful for us, haven’t done anything to change his behaviour.

School get a toned version from him on both fronts. They are aware he is bright but not the full extent. They get some silliness, difficulty with sharing and some emotionality but not to the extent we do. They were a bit 🤷🏻‍♀️ when we mentioned neurodiversity.

Does anyone recognise this? Thanks.

Have you had him assessed by an educational psychologist? It may be helpful to get a clear eyed view of where he’s at. Does he have an actual diagnosis? I don’t have a child quite like this, mines bright and quite active and high engagement. We signed her up to lots of sports which has definitely helped. How much exercise does he get?

When you say explosive etc do you have an example? It may be normalish or not.

I found “the explosive child” quite helpful.

Have a look at some of the books on the Jessica Kingsley web site. They have a range of age appropriate materials including workbooks on topics such as anger management
https://uk.jkp.com/products/the-disappointment-dragon?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=3b8e6b71c&pr_rec_pid=5756022915237&pr_ref_pid=8157004300538&pr_seq=uniform

Thanks for your response.

Okay, a prime example of explosive has happened this week. He had a minor infection of his finger after breaking the nail quite low at school. He needed 5 days of antibiotics. Granted they aren’t nice. But every single dose has been met with an hour of screaming, crying, physical resistance, avoidance techniques and more screaming. It’s exhausting. Just generally, anything he disagrees with or thinks even slightly negatively affects him his met with shouting, screaming and crying. Parenting techniques can make the behaviour stop in the short term, but day on day we see no changes.

I have seen about educational psychologists. I think school will think we are mad but we are so desperate I might go for it.

And re: exercise.

His physical energy is endless. But it’s really hard to channel it. He sniffs out exercise dressed up and refuses. Any repeating event that requires effort is a chore. He just wants to tare around the house.

Does he have other characteristics of PDA (pathological or extreme demand avoidance ) because the extreme explosive behaviour to normal everyday demands as well as some of the other behaviours you have described would fit. I believe my now adult son has this , he masked quite well at school and was not diagnosed all that time ago

Yes I can relate, my youngest is 7 and it's utterly exhausting. He loves being outside though and loves exercise and physical activity and sport and that's our main way of coping, we are always out with him doing very physical things. As am example on Saturdays he does parkrun (5km in half an hour), then an hour of football, then an hour of swimming, and he'd still be outside in the garden after that if he can be. As many after school sports clubs as we can get him in.

He hates not having a plan and the unknown, so we now have a very detailed whiteboard on the kitchen with the whole week planned out for him to see, who's dropping him at school, who's picking him up, what clubs he has, what the weekend plans are, what the menu is, everything goes on the board and this has really helped him cope. I go through it with him on a Sunday night for the week ahead.

Christmas was exhausting as he was so wound up. Term time is much calmer.

I have a very bright 6 year old ADHD. For us the main problems are the need for constant attention, the constant interrupting and incessant talking, and the inability to complete mundane tasks because of distraction

This evening she is driving me insane because I've finally given in and let her have TV to give my ears and brain a break. But she is still talking. Constant commentary, answering the characters, telling me what's just happened

I'm not sure this is a helpful post! But mostly - solidarity, it's so hard!

@TheOliveFinch I’ve googled what he’s like a lot and PDA had come up time and time again, so yes, it feels like this could be close to the mark. I think school would laugh us out of there if I suggested autism though, which I understand has to come with PDA.

@overmydeadbody sounds hard. I kinda wish we could channel him like that though. He definitely has the physical energy to do these things but he would just view it as such an awful chore we would never be able to get him to.

@Choice4567 yes a constant stream of noise is a problem here as well. He also hates mundane tasks to the point of meltdown.

Yeah thats quite extreme, I think he could really benefit from a thorough assessment. Sounds extremely exhausting.

Both of my daughters were very siniakr to what you describe at that age. Both are now diagnosed with ADHD. Oldest one is on medication for it and is thriving and happy and so much calmer. She goes to a highly selective school and does very well. When she was younger she would constantly distract herself during tasks and so she struggled to be happy at school. Now she is so much easier and happier. We started the medication at around ten and she is now 12.

My daughter has just been diagnosed with ADHD and yes it is potentiallynlinked with a high IQ but she has yet to go into an assessment of her IQ.

In her case she's really controlling and can be manipulative but also really driven and well spoken - she will basically do whatever it takes to get what she wants and won't stop until she gets it. I have found that upping her activity levels, sports particularly, and doing things like Kumon helps.

You do need a full assessment. You need to engage the school and your doctor.

He does sound neurodiverse, indeed, but is it possible that he is bored? Bright kids can have a lit of behavioural issues if they get bored beyond the beyond at school. If he is far far ahead of others, he may need big changes to keep him engaged. Have you tried to get him books ahead of his tear? Does he engage with those?
For the physical energy, does he walk to and from school? To the shops? Will he run in a park? Play football? Or does he only like going mad at home?

@12345NumberBlocks PDA is an atypical presentation of autism my son did show some very challenging behaviours when he first started school but was very bright and muddled through and his behaviour at school did improve to some extent at later primary age. At home we had all the behaviours you describe and some. I first came across PDA when he was about 10 and it was a real lightbulb moment as it wasn’t well recognised at the time. As an adult he can mask the traits when things are going well but the behaviours are still there when he is stressed.

I have an extremely bright DD. Now at university.
She hated school. I also have a super high achieving son. He can be two people.
My son plays chess and did so from five. It calms him, he still plays at 25. He's also a sportsman. Both are not thought to be ND but 50% of their cousins are. There was a reluctance to put them through SEN testing as the were both over achievers.
My DD is a med student so her full days suit her. She happier now she's older but it was a bumpy ride.

@12345NumberBlocks

I'm asking this without any judgement.( I've got 2 nd children and have done so much wrong with mine). You say he refuses in your last post. What discipline/ strategies do you use when this happens?

Ds1 is autistic, he is exceptionally bright in maths but in other areas presents like a completely different child ( his speech was delayed, he has dyslexia and appeared immature)

Primary school could not understand why we were pushing for an assessment and his maths abilities were not really recognised until secondary school.

However I am so glad we did. It meant he was supported and his behaviours recognised as part of being autistic rather than naughty.

I read up a lot on PDA and whilst he never had a diagnosis of this the behaviour management strategies recommended were incredibly useful. I also bought the book 'calmer easier happier parenting' and found it useful.

You need to stop thinking about it from a changing his behaviour/making him more normal POV and turn it into ways for him to cope with and understand his world. Look at areas he struggles with - is he seeking more or less stimulation at certain times? What are you doing to manage his routine?
Know that outbursts aren't always because of the circumstances at hand but often because of emotional disregulation that has built up and boiled over into a meltdown.

Physical energy could be seeking stimulation - mini trampolines, rocking horses, swings etc. can be great for these.

Equally things like weighted blankets, soothing noise or lights can help cope if nearing meltdown.

Just to give another perspective, much of your description fit my son aged 5. Very bright (not quite as bright as yours but early reader, very eloquent for his age, Lego whizz, very good reasoning etc) and VERY difficult indeed. Very affectionate but also incredibly strong-willed with an explosive temper. I relate to the medicine issue so much!! We gave up on any medicine that wasn't essential because it was a case of force-feeding him it. No amount of cajoling, bribery, argument, threats would work and he went absolutely berserk over it.

He was very strong-willed, would frequently say no for the sake of opposing us (it felt like) - ruined many a day out with sulking, kicking his siblings, calling us names under his breath We had to communicate very carefully, explain things, pre warn him about trips or even going to the shops for gods sake, and even then about 50-% of the time he would kick off about something. We applied consequences and that worked to some extent, but sometimes it would just enrage him and he'd smash up his room, throw things ...

And at school, nothing. Reports said he was easily distracted and sometimes had trouble obeying classroom rules, but otherwise fine. At least during school term we had relatively fewer outbursts. The holidays were SO hard.

Anyway ... fast forward and he is now 7, will be 8 in April. We endured all of ages 5 and 6 hoping he'd grow out of it, but by 7 and after a horrific few weeks last summer holidays I took him to the paediatrician who referred him to a child psychologist. He's had about 6 months of talking therapy now and honestly, between this and his increasing maturity, we are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. He still has outbursts of rudeness, impulsiveness, hyper etc but he is much more in control, and if he does explode we can generally help him calm down. He has his 'calm' activities like reading in his room. We can negotiate, we can explain, we can compromise. He understands our point of view even if we sometimes have to agree to disagree on things.

Interestingly the psychologist is reluctant to diagnose ADHD; she says many children struggle with developing executive function and he may just be late in this aspect of his development. Which, combined with intelligence and a strong will, is a recipe for the type of explosive behaviours we saw. (I agree with previous recommendation of The Explosive Child as a good read.)

The only thing that helped was patience, explanation, strict application of 1st warning and then (fair) consequence, talking, hugs, more talking - and the therapy too. Old-fashioned discipline was a disaster.

I don't know if this is helpful but maybe be open to the possibility he may outgrow it. Eventually!

Yes, like that. Would go to any lengths to get what they want. Constant attention, constant talking. Reluctant to leave house - yes, could take us an hour to agree to go somewhere, another hour to actually leave, if anything didn't go to plan, would walk or run off when out.

It's gotten much better as she's gotten older, a lot more ability to cope day to day and show care and empathy for other people when she's not overwhelmed.

If he refuses exercise could you set up something at home for him like a climbing wall, swing, mini trampoline? Would be good for sensory feedback. Does he get some down time to regulate after school? Have you tried any other activities to stimulate him like chess or joining board gaming groups like dungeons and dragons (he might be a bit young right now). How about lego or other more complicated building activities to help him with down time in a healthy way. He'll be masking all day at school and will need space and time when he comes home to process the day.

Sounds very like my child around the same age (apart from the tearing around the house)
We didn't start the diagnosis process until age 11, we did have an extended period where primary school attributed all his behaviours to something else but very quickly upon starting high school everything reached crisis point

Reminds me of DS1 at that age...you have my utter support, it's exhausting.
Our son actually liked formal sports..football, rugby, cricket, hockey, karate, shooting( air rifles), He got a 100% scholarship to a prep, who channelled his intelligence, and energy levels. We unravelled in his teens when MH problems started to appear. I sincerely hope your lad doesn't get on that path.

my grandson was similar at five-eight, although with maturity some aspects have improved. the most positive change has been medication for adhd (started this school year).
the parents give him his tablet at breakfast time m-f for classroom behavior purposes not necessary on sports days but absolutely crucial for church type assemblies or museums...
his psychiatric evaluation showed a very spiky profile and very consistent with the hyperactivity profile. runs, jumps, takes rooms apart and lots of emotion when someone attempts to redirect him.
when hyperactive he does not always recognize danger (biking or darting from a-b), and will often hit/kick when challenged, followed by full on tears (while being able to fully explain why what he was doing was important).
he now self regulates on the treadmill, or the peloton stationary bike or the pool when that is accessible.
his father has add (attention deficit NOT hyperactive) so he has been very helpful at helping on the maturing with adhd side, mom super sporty so she can physically keep up.
he'd be a great only child to an olympian.

Sorry for the slow reply. Going through the evening medicine trauma. Thank god that finishes tomorrow.

@tothelefttotheleft So, despite saying refuse, we don’t actually let him refuse anything now. We’ve made his world much smaller, so there isn’t much to refuse. He used to do gymnastics and football, but it was such a trauma to get him there we stopped them. But everything else now is none negotiable. He hates walking to school (complains and cries every single day to drive, despite it being <0.5 miles) but that is enforced come rain or shine. Same with his weekly swimming lesson. Leaving the house for a walk once a day at weekends is none negotiable. He complains cries and whinges in the run up, but we push through. It’s 50:50 once we are out. Sometimes the crying continues and it’s a stuggle to go 50m and sometimes his physical side takes over and he’ll literally run for miles. Totally unpredictable.

More generally, the constant crying and whinging is offered sympathy regularly but then largely ignored and we never let it change our plans. It’s a fine balance - getting angry with him makes everything so much worse, but equally he doesn’t seem to respond to hyper feelings based parenting either.

Have you tried to get him books ahead of his tear? Does he engage with those?For the physical energy, does he walk to and from school? To the shops? Will he run in a park? Play football? Or does he only like going mad at home?

@MushMonster Anything that feels like school work at home is tricky. If you catch him in the right mood, his brilliant mind, especially for mathematics, shine through. But usually anything we try and engage him with is met with feverish resistance.
See above re: physical energy. Going mad at home is his preferred release by a long way.

Mine was a nightmare.

Low demand parenting really helped. I agree with @Nn9011 aa well.

It’s about coping techniques for him, ways to help him manage his behaviour and have a happier time. Teach stress management and reduce stress. So kid meditation activities- blowing balloons, blowing candles, bubbles. Counting, grounding exercise. The more calm he can build, the more resilient he’ll be.

I know two children who calmed massively in their teens. Really disregulated in primary, but settled by secondary. One used food to soothe and is obese, sadly.