Four year old - not ND but very, very challenging

[dashingthruthesnow]

I really struggle with my four year old. I thought four would be a bit easier but it’s proving challenging as three and two were (and one!).

He attends preschool who have no concerns and I do think he is probably not ND but equally I think his behaviour is at the challenging end of normal if you like.

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you. I hate this; it’s so rude and I’m worried about him doing it next year at school but preschool have never mentioned him doing it. He also does the stonewall trick where he just doesn’t respond to you at all.

I know I’ll probably get replies like ‘parent him’ but I guess what I’m asking is how, when no sanctions or consequences really have any affect on him at all - he just isn’t bothered.

Have you had him assessed for ND?

‘But I can’t just ignore him climbing the TV cabinet / pulling his sister over / trashing the Christmas tree either.’

This is not usual behaviour. I work with this age group and have see this among chn with adhd or odd.

’ you shout and they get angry back’

Not usual either. Teens maybe but not 4 year olds.

@dashingthruthesnow sounds very full on, especially with the younger one!

My son is very very full on - full disclosure he's had a referral accepted for an autism assessment BUT that process started at his 2.5 year review and most professionals/people spending extended time with him say "there's definitely something there" and it was based on many factors including intense separation anxiety, general anxiety, rigidity, awful sleep etc. He was potty trained just before his 2nd birthday with no issues and generally his behaviour is good, just very full on.

Things I recognise from your posts (but not suggesting this means he's Nd) are the "mirroring" when you shout and run of activities not tiring them out.

Shouting does not help with ds, it makes it worse. Obviously sometimes I do because like you say, if they're suddenly standing on the TV stand it's an "aaaagh" moment! But generally, clearly laid out expectations ahead of time really help (bonus if you can put any required rule/demand on an unseen authority figure) and keep a calm but firm/stern tone and (without using 1200 words) explain why he can't do the thing, brief empathy, offer an alternative.

Also lots of activities can overstimulate. Allow time at home sometimes. Not all day, but just an afternoon or something.

Good luck op, I hope today goes bet! Also remember this is a crazy time! Adults are overstimulated/over excited/overwhelmed with all things December so little kids definitely will be too. But you've got this.

I'm labouring it because understanding our child's neurotype is a huge step forward in 1. Understanding what type of parenting strategies will best help them 2. It stops us from blaming ourselves for their behaviour 3. It helps us bring them up with a positive sense of self 4. Helps those around our child understand and support them.

In a few years you will no doubt have a diagnosis for him and that will be helpful. Until then, there's lots of good parenting tips on this thread. Good luck

@dashingthruthesnow Sorry, should have added, my son has just turned 5! Things have improved this year and I think it's a mix of things - him getting older, us understanding him better and feeling more confident in our parenting (it's a little outside the box at times but It Works) and him starting school - we were so worried about this, we had meetings with the school beforehand and they went to his nursery as well.

He has some little adjustments, some official like being allowed to wear his hat and take his comfort item in and some we just do, like get him there early so he's got time to be on the playground when it's almost empty then go straight inside rather than arriving when it's really busy and queuing up etc. But he's absolutely thriving so far (I realise it's early days!) He loves the structure and routine of it all. Loves learning. Gets so excited about getting stickers and certificates. Has a nice set of friends too!

For a short while try and get things really positive between you. I would try and distract him rather than telling him not to do things. Give him choices. Just try not to be the authority for a bit so he doesn’t need to react to you. Let some stuff go!

My DD has ASD and the main thing that resonates from my experience with your post is when you say that normal parenting strategies don't work because he literally doesn't care about any punishment /telling off /consequences etc. Sticker charts - who cares. Shouting - she was stressed and behaviour worsened so we learnt never to do that.

The only thing that worked for my DD when she was at her worst at about age 6 was routine. Any request to do something she would kick off. For example if she was obviously desparate to go to the loo (either wee or poo!) and anyone commented on it - eg why don't you go to the loo now, or, right quickly go to the toilet then we can go to the park etc etc then she would freak out and completely refuse to go to the toilet. Shouting made it far far worse so we never shouted. She was using the loo twice in 24 hrs if we were lucky at this stage! Most days only once!! Eventually by doing a visual timetable and making a routine of when she needed to go to the loo I could say 'we always go to the loo before we put our shoes on for school /before bath' and at least it was then a routine twice a day. I also spent time trying to explain it was bad for her body to hold in wees and poos but she didn't really respond to that. Later on during lock down it would take me all day to get her to do any home learning work whatsoever (I didn't have high standards eg I was trying to get her to write two lines of answers or do less than 5 simple sums). She's highly intelligent so it wasn't too difficult for her, it was because I was asking her to do it.

The other thing was her was a complete need to be in control of every situation. Eg she couldn't take part in games even a kick around football game in the garden as she wasn't in control of the rules (if she took part she'd change all the rules so that she was in charge of it).

We took her for an ADHD assessment which they said she didn't have but they asked her to come back for an ASD assessment. When they diagnosed it I was in complete disbelief - and I've worked with ASD kids in the past! Doh! Took me about 6 months to believe the diagnosis and then finally I read enough about how it can present especially in girls or intelligent kids. Once I understood her better (and as she's grown up) things have got so so so so so much easier. We've gone from me crying on the headteacher's shoulder at drop off in year 1 to her being the model student and actually very happy in year 6.

Good luck and as others say, keep an open mind. Bear in mind that NHS waiting times for ADHD and ASD assessments are around 3 years currently so I always think it's worth getting on a waiting list if you have concerns. You can always cancel it if you get an appointment date and your concerns aren't there any longer.

Oh another thought
I agree increasing the connection between you and him is so important. I think doing 'special time' which is ten or twenty minutes a day where he chooses what you both do, is a really good way to love bomb and make that connection.

https://www.peacefulparenthappykids.com/read/How-To-Special-Time

From that website -
'Every parent I know who has started doing Special Time with his or her child has told me that they see significant changes in their child's behavior. Parents often say that their child seems to respond to it as if they've been missing an essential nutrient. In a way, they have been.
Why? Because we live in a stressful culture that disconnects us from each other, from our feelings, and from our own inner wisdom. Special Time is the antidote for parents and children, an essential nutrient that heals the upsets and disconnections of daily modern life. Specifically, Special Time'

Does your younger daughter have a nap that you can use that time to have with your son?

I also echo others and say you really don't know if he is ND or not. Children also get misdiagnosed. I was told my child wasn't ASD... but was assessed again a few years later and was told they were (we knew due to family history/presentation). What might help you now is trying to learn as much about different ND presentations and trying different parenting strategies. Seeing what works might point you in the right direction. It could be they need routine or it could be a more PDA type presentation which needs different skills. Take a look at the PDA society guidance on parenting for instance: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/

I think that as others think, it MIGHT be that he's ND. But that's not necessarily that helpful for you at this point - realistically, the ND only becomes something that you are goign to get support for if it's affecting more than just how he behaves at home. Until it affects how he learns and interacts more widely, you're not goign to get much help so unless you can afford private care, it's a bit pointless except as a thing to keep in mind (although - your comment that he might not be that bright COUDL be true. It could also be ND. It's a bloodu minefield).

Having said that, a less well known ND condition that can often exist alongside ASD/ADHD is Sensory Processing Disorder and it's one that makes the early years very frustrating but often, over time, the child can really learn a lot of tools to help themselves. DS has SPD (and, as it turns out, ADHD) and has recently taken up rugby again now that he feels he has the tools to cope with the mud/cold/wet for example. He's tried to play before - he's always wanted to - but just couldn't cope before (he's sensory avoiding mostly - but a lot of children are sensory seeking which makes them particularly hard work). But things like simply not listening, or seeking/avoiding specific sensory input are very common and it's complicated when they're young because they don't understand and can't vocalise what's happening.

Having said all that, it's about finding tools for NOW. Personally, I agree that consequences are important and I know you say he doesn't care but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. So he's jumping on the couch, you move him into another room. I noticed you said something about "that just makes him angry". My response would be - fine, being angry is okay, but it isn't a justification for doing things. I'd also say that there's a bit of a pavlovian aspect to this - if he gets moved into another room and he gets angry, over time, he's going to figure out that NOT doing something means he wont' get moved and he wont' get angry.

It's very difficult so you 100% have my sympathy.

Coming back to say there's some really great advice on this thread. I agree with those saying it actually doesn't matter at this stage about ND or not. Hope you don't feel too bamboozled by the thread. Maybe try some of the strategies for ND kids people are describing just because it might help you give yourself a break - it's so hard and exhausting for you at the moment. It would also help you and your DS have a more connected and easy relationship as time goes on. Best of luck.

To pick up on the 'nursery have no concerns' comment.
Is he at private nursery or school nursery? I find private settings tend to hold back a bit on anything that could be perceived as negative as you are their customer.

I'm a Reception teacher and I don't tend to tell parents everything I think unless there a big concerns, I tend to drip feed things to them. I'm cautious as the children are young. It might be worth having an honest conversation with them.

If you use something more immediate I think that's more than understandable to a 4 year old.

He’s actually in both. I’ve asked both outright if there are any concerns re being potentially ND, and they’ve said no. Ditto HV. Of course, MN knows best 🙄

You're in the "fu** it 4's" stage op. I promise it does get better. My first dc is ND, and was actually lovely at 4, don't get me wrong he has his own challenges, but he is more laid back. My 2nd dc who is NT however, is incredibly stubborn and emotional volatile, a year behind I would say in emotional maturity in some areas (although a saint at school), or maybe dc1 is ahead (I have no idea).
Finally now at 5, he is starting to understand a little more, and is lovely again. They really are different at different ages, some make easier babies, some toddlers. It really does depend on the child.

Thanks @ChristmasfoodisOverrated . Honestly when I read this back I realise I’m the problem. I don’t mean I’m a crap parent, as I don’t think I am, but I’m exhausted, I’m not spending enough time with him because of my other child, I’m not very well and I have a few other things going on. He isn’t all that challenging, I realise, but when you’re at the end of your rope things that on another day aren’t that important, like being a bit silly or not listening which are part of being four I suppose, feel calamitous and personal and they aren’t. And I do think this is why all these diagnosis by internet are so dangerous.

@dashingthruthesnow - I know it’s been a few months since you started this thread, but I wondered how you and your son are getting on now? I’ve had a difficult week with my eldest (4y 2m) and recognise so much of what you’ve said here!