Four year old - not ND but very, very challenging

[dashingthruthesnow]

I really struggle with my four year old. I thought four would be a bit easier but it’s proving challenging as three and two were (and one!).

He attends preschool who have no concerns and I do think he is probably not ND but equally I think his behaviour is at the challenging end of normal if you like.

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you. I hate this; it’s so rude and I’m worried about him doing it next year at school but preschool have never mentioned him doing it. He also does the stonewall trick where he just doesn’t respond to you at all.

I know I’ll probably get replies like ‘parent him’ but I guess what I’m asking is how, when no sanctions or consequences really have any affect on him at all - he just isn’t bothered.

First step is to rule out anything physical for the stonewalling. Get a hearing test, you never know, it could be he is frustrated by not hearing which also causes the outbursts and resistance.

Agree with getting a hearing test just in case the stonewalling is because he can’t actually hear you. Also, I think it’s normal for that age to push the boundaries and not meekly accept being told off. IDK if you to this but it he hears you saying no sternly he’s probably just copying, or it could even be nursery. Mine is a bit younger but due to start at the school at the same time, and whilst he doesn’t favour shouting he does like to try to send us to the ‘thinking spot’ because that’s what nursery call time out. I just ignore it and stay consistent with whatever consequence I’d do normally e.g. a short spell in said thinking spot, removal of the toy, removal of him from the situation etc. My elder child did it too and is now a perfectly normal 7YO that I pretty much never have to tell off for anything!

It’s not hearing - he’s had many tests relating to this and he can hear you if you mention crisps!

Get hearing and vision checked.

Glue ear is common at that age which can cause problems with hearing.

Then with behaviour:

Consequences and sanctions are for after the behaviour.

Much better to make sure the behaviour cannot happen or to try alternative methods.

For example, often small children behave badly when hungry or tired. If he is at school take a snack along to give him as soon as he comes out. If the weather is even vaguely reasonable take him to the park to run around (ideally in a fenced off space) so he can feel free of rules and being good.

You could also consider using distraction or choices - would you like to wear the red t shirt or the blue t shirt when what you mean is bloody well get dressed we are late.

Thanks. I think what worries me is I do all of this. I do honestly try hard to manage the environment so that he has varied activities and doesn’t get hungry or thirsty but he does so many things that are sometimes just stupid and annoying and other times dangerous and I just can’t seem to change them. It makes me feel a bit shit!

If he's not like it at school and they have no concerns then he's either

A. Masking (this is a possibility. I had a child like this who was a nightmare at home. Her mum was a senco and is now diagnosed).

B. Lack of boundaries at home. He knows he can get away with stuff which he knows he can't get away with at school. Do you follow through on consequences?

C. Too much technology. Unhelpful to any child. Keep him off anything except TV/ Alexa stories for a bit of time per day. Maybe a tiny bit at the weekend if he's used to a lot.

To reassure, my DD was awful till 5. She would have the most almighty tantrums. She was very strong willed. It all settled down at 5. She's still stubborn (positive side: determined) but the screaming stopped!

I mean it is pretty much the job description for 4 year olds to do stupid and annoying things.

That's not something you are going to fix quickly, they do grow up eventually.

Mine used to try to ride our dog like a horse and he was amazingly tolerant.

Is there anything specific he is doing that you feel is out of the norm?

(Shouting back at you when told off is pretty normal)

He has next to no technology. I mean, a tiny bit of TV at the end of the day but maybe less than 30 minutes.

It probably is me but it’s hard because he cares about nothing. I am exhausted by him and we have a horrible relationship I want to put right but can’t.

Thanks @Octavia64 that is reassuring … Climbing out of the booster seat, treading on things (and breaking them) climbing on things (and breaking them.) I have had an exceptionally tough day with them (have a younger child too) and I do feel really negative and just desperate for them both to be out of my face for five fucking minutes.

You have many years to sort out your relationship. Right now, pick your battles and make sure you stick with a consequence on the important things eg. Going to bed, getting it off the house. Think of incentives eg. A pasta jar and a bit of pasta every time he listens and when it's full he gets something he wants. Also absolutely tons of specific positive praise. Sit down and think, what's he done today that's good? Made something cool out of lego (even if he didn't want to tidy it up before dinner), enjoyed a story and made intelligent comments (even if he didn't want to go to sleep) etc. Then praise those specific things.

It sounds like it's always being told not to do things, rather than when you ask him to do something. That's great, as you can work in it!

It can be a lot of pressure to make all your own decisions and feel at a loose end at 4. I would focus on giving him projects and ideas to do instead, even if it means joining in with the Lego or something to start with. Once their heads are full enough with good ideas of things to do, there's less space for the bad ideas.

So for now, if he's climbing on something, just say "DS can you come and do X instead..." Rather than telling him what not to do.

Sleeps fine @PrincessOfPreschool - pasta in a jar doesn’t work at all, he just isn’t motivated by it at all (or the variants.)

I do try to praise good behaviour but it’s hard because even when I’m trying to be positive it goes haywire.

Just have to carry on but it does feel a bit miserable. I feel I’m doing the right things but they don’t work.

Have they been recent. As a pp said it could be glue ear and that can affect different tones/registers.
So perhaps he can easily hear a high toned 'crisps' but struggle with lower registers or when environments are more noisy.

Yes, trust me it is 100% not hearing.

He doesn't act like this at the preschool;so, he does this to you because he can.

How do you react when he shouts no to you?
I would definitely punish him (obviously, not physically).
I believe children need discipline - depending on the situation - I usually remove them from the situation (if they behave badly somewhere), take a toy away (for example, if they throw it away) switch off tv (if they complain about the chanels) no snacks (if they don't want to eat the food that had been offered) etc. Depending on what caused the issue, I would punish them with that.

I understand this "modern" let's talk about everything parenting style (not saying that's you as I don't know).BUT! When they over two, they know what they doing. They test their boundaries and try to see what they can get away (which is complitely normal). They can only get away with things you allow them to get away with.

Who is helping you with the parenting? Do you get to see him behave differently with others or is it that pre-school haven't yet raised concerns you are assuming they aren't getting any behaviour that you see?

It sounds like it has been going on a long time and may now have created an anxious dynamic between you both where you may be expecting the behaviour and he is expecting things to be negative. That is really hard on both of you if you want to create change you will need some support.

Not responding to typical parenting techniques and consistent discipline is outside of the norm, and probably is worth flagging up with a HV or GP to see if there is anything they would suggest screening for. The measures you outline in this comment are also not typically required by most parents.

What makes you say definitely not ND? What are you thinking the line is that he would need to cross for that to be a possibility?

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you.

You shout at him so he learns that shouting is ok. Then he shouts back at you and you say he's being rude.

I’d try a good multivitamin, plus magnesium if you have any sleep issues. Daily for a few months at least.

Its one of the first bits of advice people are often given on the pathway to adhd investigations - mineral deficiencies can cause lots of behavioural issues in young children.

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you.

It sounds quite oppositional - for want of a better word. And you sound fed up with him. Do you praise him when he is good? Can you make each other laugh? Do you let him say what he wants to do sometimes? It goes against the Mumsnet rules but I'd consider letting him watch a bit more TV or spend 30 minutes on a gentle computer game. If you've got time it would be nice if you spent some time with him on these activities - so watch TV with him for 15 minutes then leave him to it for another 30 minutes. Also, if it carries on you may need an ADHD assessment.

I am going through the same kind of thing at the moment. Son aged 5 nearly 6 and in year 1. It did start in reception class. Just about to start the ADHD process. I was thinking he had PDA Pathological demand avoidance. I was more convinced there was something more underlying as his brother age 8 has non verbal autism and severe learning disabilities. However younger son presented without any issues until he started school in 2023

Have a little read up on PDA or ODD symptoms. It may well be nothing and just a phase but it's there any how.

My children also stand on things, despite normally not being particularly difficult. It's very annoying.

Anyway, ordinarily alrhough it is a cliche I'm a big fan of trying to implement natural consequences. Sometimes it can be hard to think of what that is. If he stands on a thing he owns, he clearly doesn't care about it so it is taken away.
If he climbs on the furniture rather than sitting on it, he is banned from it (I banned by son from the sofa for 2 days because he kept standing on it. It worked). If he won't stay in his booster seat (is that in the car or at the table?) Then you pull over or he can't be brought to wherever he wants to go. Of its dinner he doesn't get dinner.

I'm a 'voice raiser' who is trying to change. Natural consequences are much more effective than shouting.

Or distraction etc. But that can be hard when you're angry. I've had to work hard at being less angry.

I think the answer to your problem is in this part of your post: If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something, he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you.
Preschool won't have any issues with his behaviour as he won't be shouted at there. He will be spoken to calmly and gently and praised for doing the right thing. He will also be notified of any change, like 'we are about tidy up in 5 minutes' etc... Start to phrase everything positively and keep your tone calm and kind. Also give him reminders, eg we're going to be leaving the park very soon so if there is something you haven't yet done let's do it now, so that he doesn't feel like he is being dragged away with no agency over his life. And then praise or rewarded him for doing the right thing. Remember, he is reacting to you and your tone of voice. Keep it sweet and so will he be. If you are raising your voice and getting angry with him, you are teaching him that is the way to communicate when you don't get your own way.

@Spudthespanner (and others who have responded in this vein) i do try not to shout but the problem is on here people are very quick to tell you that all it takes is speaking in a firm voice / shouting / being stern and I’m trying to explain that this just isn’t effective. I agree talking about his feelings isn’t either but I guess this is the thing, I’m a bit stumped. He isn’t upset or motivated to change by things like removing toys or similar - it’s all just met with anger (from him.) Obviously it would be a lie to say I never shout but it is unusual and it certainly isn’t habitual.

I don’t think for a moment he has PDA.

@BlueRaincoat1 its infuriating I know sometimes things do have a natural consequence - you stood on your toy so I’ll take it away, fine, but what about when he’s standing on his sisters toy or a bag or whatever? That’s a rhetorical question; I know I’ll get lots of bossy replies saying I then take HIS toy away but HE DOESN’T CARE! If it was that easy … sigh. (That’s not aimed at you!)

We have had an exceptionally difficult day and I guess I’m just drained.