Four year old - not ND but very, very challenging

[dashingthruthesnow]

I really struggle with my four year old. I thought four would be a bit easier but it’s proving challenging as three and two were (and one!).

He attends preschool who have no concerns and I do think he is probably not ND but equally I think his behaviour is at the challenging end of normal if you like.

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you. I hate this; it’s so rude and I’m worried about him doing it next year at school but preschool have never mentioned him doing it. He also does the stonewall trick where he just doesn’t respond to you at all.

I know I’ll probably get replies like ‘parent him’ but I guess what I’m asking is how, when no sanctions or consequences really have any affect on him at all - he just isn’t bothered.

I literally could have written this post. Even agree with all your responses.
I wonder for my DD about neurodiversity and the health visitor spoke to preschool who said she shows no ND signs there and she has since started school and no concerns. I feel your frustration so much. We have the same, the stonewalling, she just doesn't care if she hurts someone, she doesn't listen, shouts back, hits and lashes out... she's a good kid overall but when she decides she wants to do something her way there's just absolutely nothing I can do to change that and she responds to no discipline or incentive. She feels emotions so strongly that things most kids would shrug off send her into an absolute spin. I think there's probably some things we could do better as parents but also I know we are generally good parents so although always keen to learn how to do better I think it's very much her nature as well as parenting. Sounds from your post that that might reasonate.

Not really advice but some things we've tried that have been somewhat effective:

• keeping routine
• have started going to some webinars from local parent carer forum covering PDA and things. Altho I suspect she has elements of these behaviours but isn't diagnosable but you don't need a diagnosis to go. So this gives me some ideas for how to help her

-lots of picking battles

I like the multivitamin idea mentioned.

And lots of sympathy from me, I don't think most people really understand quite how draining it is to constantly deal with but not really having anything that actually works.

I had a very challenging 4 year old (he actually is autistic but not diagnosed at that point). I found the book 'Easier Calmer Happier Parenting' was a complete game changer for me. I would also look at the strategies recommended for children with PDA. My son hasn't got a diagnosis of PDA but the strategies were very helpful. I would focus on what you want them to do, natural/logical consequences, move on quickly from any issues, only ask them to do something when you are in a position to ensure they do it, give choices whenever possible, deal with basic needs first (hunger and tiredness etc), specific praise for effort, be realistic in expectations based on age, avoid star charts/time out, give time to process any requests.

Oh, OP, you don't know how much I feel you... I'm in exactly the same boat! I came to ask you how are you? If you are not having enough rest and are very charged, your child will feel and absorbe it. I believe many times (not always, ofc), they are reacting to our own "bad vibes" if you know what I mean. I don't know how to make the days last more hours to fit in more resting time, though 😭
Hang in there: I'm hoping very hard it's a phase...

It's REALLY hard to think of natural consequences, and I definitely resort to.a telling off more often than not.

But I guess the consequence of standing on his sister's toy might be having to leave the room. Or sit on a chair. Because his behaviour on the floor isn't acceptable?

It can be exhausting. It's like they just stand on things without thinking about it. My shoes. The remote control. A toy. A cushion. A book. So bloody annoying.

But I guess you can just say 'don't stand on the whatever' and pick it up. It's probably easisst. .

Thank you it’s good to have solidarity.

It is difficult, I don’t think he’s horrible or nasty or anything and he has got good points. Brilliant eater; eats his veg, fruit, fish, really healthy diet. (Sister is offered the same but fat more selective.) He sleeps no problem; goes to bed, listens to Yoto player, sleeps, great.

He does however have absolutely boundless, limitless energy. You know how on MN kids are so wiped out from a day at preschool / reception they are half asleep at teatime? Not this child, downtime doesn’t exist, he’s on the go, up, about, here, there, everywhere. We do varied and (I think) fun activities, but it is harder at this time of year and I guess he’s feeling that but still he can literally have six hours at preschool outside and still want to play in the garden.

He also gets really silly and it’s normal .., I know obviously four year olds get daft and wound up but my own energy reserves are pretty low at the moment and so I’m struggling a bit with it. It does feel a bit negative: get off that, leave her alone, put it down, no Put it DOWN! But I can’t just ignore him climbing the TV cabinet / pulling his sister over / trashing the Christmas tree either.

I suppose I am partly comparing him to me as a child and I’d have been terrified to have been told off but then I’m maybe remembering being older than DS? Hard to say.

The TV thing isn’t my rule, he’s just not really fussed by TV at the moment. He goes through phases: a few months ago he was very into paw patrol and watched it quite a bit (not excessively but it was handy for moments where you just wanted a bit of peace) but now he’s gone off it and seems to want to play which is great except he’s not great at playing with toys. It’s this constant need for physical activity and it’s exhausting!

No totally I think I’m struggling with my own health and with tiredness and being run down at the moment, it’s a problem isn’t it?

The point of "natural consequences" are that you don't have to "think of them"- they happen as a direct result of the child's actions. If you're creating consequences then they aren't natural (unless the consequence is that you're upset about something).

2/3 of my DC don't respond to "stern" patenting. Distraction, humour, gamifying things has been more effective and less stressful. A lot of the PDA strategies are actually just how you'd treat an adult that you respected (like your colleague) and how you'd build a cooperative relationship.

You could respond "well they're my child, not my colleague and therefore they should do what they're told": It sounds like that isn't working so well atm and if that's the case there are other ways of achieving compliance.

@User0ne thanks - I know. But they aren’t applicable to every situation and it is pointless pretending that they are.

I don’t subscribe to the idea that a child isn’t worthy of respect because they are a child but equally if they were my colleague they’d have been dismissed a long time ago!

Don’t rule out ND at this point, and look into PDA strategies (The Explosive Child is excellent, and the PDA Society has really good resources) - whether he has PDA or not the strategies may well help better than bog standard parenting. Low arousal parenting is also well worth a google. Ross Greene and Bo Elven have videos on YouTube that are worth finding.

For what it’s worth my dc are autistic, as are several children in my extended family and children of friends, it took years for any diagnoses because autism doesn’t always present how most people think it does!

My 4yo is exactly like this. No sign of ND. My eldest - who was tricky in a lot of ways (and possibly is Nd) - never did anything like it and do it definitely does make me feel like shit. At the end of a long day it's very hard.
But what works (as much as anything) for me is pre-empting situations where she's likely to be shouting, acting out or stonewalling and turn it into something fun before her emotions can turn. So making it a race to put on shoes - who can do it fastest? And obviously I let her win. That kind of thing.
Greet the beginning of a strip with a massive grin and a really light demeanor and it's easier to bring it down... I know this is so much harder to do than to say as half the time I don't manage it.

That made me really laugh. Relatable.x

I’ve read the explosive child and couldn’t relate at all, not even slightly, which does suggest to me he hadn’t got PDA and isn’t ND. I suspect he is very high energy and is probably frustrated a lot of the time, I am hoping school will help in this respect.

Stop worrying about thinking of natural consequences. The whole point of a natural consequence is that they just happen - climb on the back of the sofa you might fall off, step on your toy it breaks, break your sisters’s toy she cries. If you’re having to think of a consequence it’s a punishment. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just reframe this.

When you say preschool have no concerns, do you mean you’ve described all this to them and they don’t see the behaviour, or just that they have not raised any concerns to you?

I wouldn’t rule out neurodiversity to be honest, my friend’s son is autistic and was very similar. She’s found PDA parenting advice very helpful, even though he doesn’t have a PDA diagnosis. Lots of people here saying get hard and crack down, honestly I’d try the exact opposite. Limit boundaries to safety ones. Especially over Christmas which is so much harder for all kids whether NT or ND - over stimulated, over chocolated, change in routines, etc etc.

Thanks @UserOne
so what is the correct non-shouty response to a.child standing on their sister's toy for the 100th time and nearly breaking it - asking genuinely, not snarkily!

I feel for you OP, it's tough going especially with another little one too. You can get really worn out and not in the mood for turning things into a game - although i agree it can be really effective.

Spoiler: he's ND. It's not your parenting.

I get that a natural consequence of not wearing a coat is you get cold. Fine. But the consequence of jumping on the sofa could be a broken arm and a broken sofa, and that doesn't really work for me!

My middle DC was a very difficult child, highly sensitive, easily frustrated, chronically inflexible. I think she really didn’t like being a small child. She hated how little control she had over her life. She is now 13 & (touch wood!!) has got easier & easier as time has passed & she is in charge of more of her life. Not sure that gives you much hope!

Often the key way to change these sort of challenging behaviours is rather than clamp down harder with the discipline, to just 'let go'.....it's so easy to get stuck in the cycle of blame/shame and being continually overbearing and critical with kids but the more that happens often the more challenging their behaviour gets.

Pick your battles, offer regular praise for the things he 'does right', ensure you carve out even short periods of time for 1-1 positive connection activities each day and try to start each day fresh, wiping the slate clean again so you don't harbour resentment.

I know that may sound abit idealistic,but honestly alot of challenging behaviours at that age (where there is no ND or trauma that is, although its quite young to know for sure about ND) are bids for attention and positive connections, so if you increase seeing him in a positive light for more of the time, you will hopefully see a shift.

Also, I'm shouty too at times so I know its hard not to, but recognise that the reason he is shouting at you and being rude is because he is copying adult behaviours...one of the most frustrating things about parenting is that it's not what we tell them that matters so much as what we do ourselves!

If you say your relationship is 'horrible' he will almost definitely be sensing a disconnection in your relationship which would be very unsettling for him.

Maybe ask your health visitor or local family hub for some 1-1 support?

If he is told firmly or sternly or even shouted at not to do something he responds by getting angry and shouting NO at you

So he's effectively doing the same to you as you're doing to him?

Our 6 year old is autistic with ADHD and I hear a lot of similarities here. My husband goes straight to don't do this, stop doing that and immediately gets frustrated, resistant behaviour back. I take a more relaxed approach and move him from what he's doing to something that's more acceptable, whilst considering the root cause.

eg:

Standing on your toys? That's likely a sensory thing for my child. Let's make a stepping stone obstacle course around the living room instead.

Launching yourself off the sofa? Proprioceptive sensory seeking. Let's get the mini trampoline out instead.

Won't leave the christmas tree the fuck alone? Play with the tinsel baubles you have in your sensory box instead.

I do feel like I am constantly telling my husband "stop telling him what he can't do, and tell him what he can do"

A natural consequence of jumping on the couch is mum gets very cross because she doesn't want her couch to be dirty or broken, so you are told you have to go and do your jumping in the garden or find something else to do.

Then beyond that you say "my kid has a real need to jump about like a daft bugger" so you enrol them in gymnastics or trampolining or get a trampoline if you can afford it.

That sort of thing.

Have to say my first thought was get a trampoline. Even a 6ft one.

We have a little trampette thing that ours uses in front of the tv bouncing around like a loon, and one in the garden too.

Proper game changers for us. He goes out in all weather on the garden one. His favourite is in the rain with the bubble machine in there because the bubbles stick to the trampoline and the netting

Yes, I think this is the issue with natural consequences. It’s great when they work, but sometimes they just aren’t applicable.

I really, honestly don’t think DS is ND. He does have a lot of energy, and is fearless, but I don’t think he’s ND. (He has a trampoline but doesn’t really show all that much interest in it to he honest.)

I also think he plays up sometimes for attention - toddler is quite demanding, and I’m on my own a lot with them.

@Spudthespanner see you’ve nailed it ‘mum will get very cross.’

If they don’t care you are cross, if your annoyance/anger has no notable impact on them or makes them angry so the situation exacerbates, you have little to work with.

I have one of these boys but he's nearly 6 and he's getting worse, it's so hard.
At school he's the model pupil who is calm and kind. At home he's a ball of rage and unreasonable arseholeness, he's aggressive and violent to all of us including his 10 year old sister which means a constant battle of arguments and fighting.