Lack of respect from nuerodiverse daughter, is it learned?

[Lackoffamilyrespect]

Late night essay incoming...

I am low contact with nearly all of my family, except for one relative who married into the family, who I get on with really well and is now separated from my blood relative.

None of my blood relatives respects me, except maybe a few of my cousins who I don't see very often because of being kept apart growing up due to family distinction. Always really warm to one another when we've seen each other when visiting another elderly relative who sadly passed recently, but wouldn't stay in contact much due to age differences and respective parents not getting on so well, so never forming that bond. As some of my cousins have gotten older, that lack of respect towards me has rubbed off on them from the older generation and they've said nasty things about my character which are just made up and because I'm a scapegoat for a lot of narcissistic personalities in a dysfunctional family- I was always the bright, happy one who loved everyone unconditionally and made the effort to go and see everyone, despite them being diatant from each other and hateful about one another, but since I've gotten older that made it easier for younger relatives to pick on me in a group, as I was the common ground between them all, as they didn't know each other that well. I don't know if that makes sense.

Anyway, I know keep myself to myself and have very few friends because I went travelling to get away from it all, and all my healthy relationships I made when I was older and more healed and able to pick better people (not always, but the majority were decent) are with people who are abroad from when I travelled.

Sadly I don't think my DD has seen many people treat me kindly and warmly. I'm a single mum and left her dad when she was a few weeks old and not seen or heard from him since. We only see relatives occasionally but she hasn't seen them treat me with kindness whereas they treat her very well, so I guess that's why I kept up some minimal contact.

I don't have any good friends here in the UK as all my old friends were toxic towards me as I guess it was easy for bullies to befriend me as I was vulnerable growing up due to abusive household. It's been hard to meet good people since I'm looking after my child 24/7. I don't work as my child struggles with full time school. I have therapy btw and it's helped me loads and made me take a step back from socialising to figure out where I've been going wrong with past relationships. I seem to have picked up bad habits since returning to the UK and only can find single parents friends whose lives are ridiculously chaotic, and although kind to me, seen so distracted by their chaos they can't engage in any proper or meaningful conversation, but the children all get on, so I indulge in these group meetups sometimes for the sake of my child. I completely stopped meeting up one on one with any of them though as it was too painful as they talk about only themselves. In a group I can just be in the group whilst they talk over one another.

So coming to the crux of the issue. My daughter has zero respect towards me. I have strong boundaries with her. Won't tolerate the disrespect and there's consequences for her behaviour, but it's just constant all day long. She has some kind of undiagnosed autism or ADHD or both, so I'm mindful that she can't tolerate frustration or negative feelings and give her space to let out those feelings and won't allow her to hit me (even though she manages to every single time). But it's almost like there's also something else psychological going on, like she's been taught that she can't trust anything I say or any boundary or prompt I give her. She refuses absolutely everything and will even promise to me that she won't do xyz again and will promptly do it. She seems to think I'm an actual emotional punching bag. I reiterate to her over and over again that I'm not her slave or emotional punch bag and follow through by removing her from whatever of mine she is trying to break or removing her from the door if she's hurting me or trying to antagonise me. It's been like this since she was a baby. One time when she was starting out walking, she came up behind me whilst I was tidying up and grabbed me from behind by my hair and pulled me down to the ground, then walked off. I'm covered in bruises. Say for example she's snuggling me but digging her elbows into me and hasn't realised, I'll say 'dd that hurts can you move your elbows please' and she'll just grin as though she's pleased that she's hurt me and will dig in harder and then I have to fight her to remove her elbows from me and put her onto another sofa. Tried reward charts, tried early help, tried taking away screen time until behaviour improved. It never has worked. Anyway, I know kids who struggle see their parents as a safe space, but this feels too far like she's actively enjoying upsetting me and sees me as a complete idiot. She's called me a fucking mummy before repeatedly every day for a month, after I once accidentally let the f word slip, but saying f* sake on a particularly gruesome day. I never even said f-ing so I don't know how she even created that sentence. I told her it was a bad word and I had said it by accident in frustration and it was wrong of me, but she still persisted. Even when the local newspaper said they would start fining for swearing and I told her, it didn't stop it. She just eventually forgot after we had a holiday.
She has a good life. Sees friends, cinema, rainbows etc, holiday once a year. I don't over pack her days. We have lots of chill time. I offer her to read together, she doesn't want to. I started playing a bit of Roblox with her as that helped us to bond whilst we were playing as two different characters on desperate devices, but as soon as I get off, the hate starts again. Anyway, I'm just wondering if she's picked up on the fact my family don't really like me and are somewhat disrespectful of my boundaries in person on the few occasions I interact with them. She does go to my mum's some weekends when it gets too much and my mum is lovely to her (but not me, but I limit the interaction with my mum to about clothes, things for her bag, how shes been over the weekend and just hand her over, chat briefly and leave, before any hostility comes out towards me. My DD has said her grandma is nice to her and plays with her a bit and is always giggling when I call up to see how she is. Oh yeah that's the other thing, she's an absolute angel for everyone else and really good and going with the flow and following that person's rules or routine. If DD were kicking off and another person in a group were to say 'come on DD shall we make a bracelet?' DD would be happy to go over and join together and make bracelets. But if I suggested it, DD would say "no, I hate making bracelets" (when I know she loves it). She's only happy doing things with me if it's her suggestion- which is usually screen time, going to get McDonald's or hide n seek. All of which I have to limit. I can't play hide n seek all day.

No hate please for the essay, I've had a really rough week with DD and I'm on the edge.

Forgot to say, DD is five.

That should have written 'room', not 'door'.

Any other confusions, I can clarify.

DD sounds normal.

When you’re setting her boundaries, your motivation for ending bad behaviour needs to be ‘this is good for no one’ not ‘I’m feeling disrespected’. It’s about you both, not your feelings.

You’re very isolated. That can lead to
being too self-involved and unfulfilled. A hobby without DD would help you see the wood for the trees. Cheers you up in a healthy way.

Were you really pulled to the ground by a five year old?

She was somewhere between age 1 and 2 when she did it. She's really strong and I wasn't expecting it as she came from behind.

I don't think it's normal for a child to spend the whole day angry and screaming over every little thing? I know it's not normal as I speak to other mums with kids the same age and they're shocked by her behaviour.

The other thing is that if I praise her it doesn't go down well.

So for example if I say 'thanks for passing that thing' (if it was next to her for example) she will say 'i only passed it to you because I want you to do xyz with it for me' like fixing a toy for example.

Like tonight I praised her when she was all calm and said it was great that she did good listening and didn't run to the freezer for something when I'd asked her not to, and instead of accepting the praise in a positive way, she pulled a sly look and decided to run to the freezer for that thing. So praise doesn't work.

Can't see where I wrote that i tell her 'i'm feeling disrespected'. I told her not to hurt me. Most of the time I'm asking her not to do things to keep herself or our belongings in the home safe, which has nothing to do with me, but it's like she gets off on seeing me worry about her doing dangerous things.

Normal 5 year old! Mine was like that - totally overwhelmed with school fir the first year. Much better subsequent years

I don’t think you’re going to get a diagnosis for a 5 yr old being naughty. In any case it won’t help. Or make you feel better, believe me.

Why do you think you’re still brooding over being pulled over 4 years on? Calling her behaviour ‘the hate’ seems unusual.

Talk to Child Social Services, maybe. They really help - parenting courses give you the facts about what children do and when as their brains develop.

DD doesn’t hate you. She may be reacting to your unhappiness. She’s a small child not an emotional support adult - they’re not known for being soothing to live with. Or easy. Single parenthood is not for the faint hearted. As you know.

Things will improve. Meantime, suggest improving your own life in non-child ways.

She's told me she hates me four times today. She ended it by saying 'no I really really hate you'. So yeah it does come across as hate. She won't let me be kind to her, won't respond to any warmth.

I'm not brooding over seeing pulled over four years on, I'm using it as an example to show that this behaviour has been since she was tiny, so it's not like anything has happened recently or it's come out of nowhere, it's been consistent. Used to hurt me as a toddling baby and laugh and have been telling her no ever since and consequences since she got older and she still does it every day.

She's been like this since before she started school...

I am sorry that you have felt let down by your family OP. Feeling rejected by people who should care for you can make you feel really vulnerable. I think a lot of what you describe about your daughter sounds like really normal behaviour, and it’s possible that you are reading into her behaviour because you haven’t been treated kindly in the past. For example, her pulling you over when she was one/ two and finding it funny- my little girl (20 months) absolutely loves pulling hair and giggles as she does it, even when her brother is screaming. I think at that age they don’t really understand other people’s pain as a concept, and find it funny to get a reaction. That’s what I’m telling myself anyway! It’s also really normal (I think) to feel like they are perfect for anyone but you. I’m by no means an expert or qualified to give advice but there’s a saying along the lines of “don’t judge your private by other people’s public” - I think a lot of 5 year olds are dealing with big feelings and can push our buttons like nobody’s business. Try not to take it as her being in any way against you.

But she's still doing painful hurtful things now, even though I've explained to her the pain it causes and shown her the bruises and taken her with me to the ultrasound (didn't have anyone to watch her) to see where my shoulders have become damaged from the strain of me trying to restrain her from attacking me and reminded her all the time she mustn't pull on my arms as my shoulders are sore. I've been concussed by her before. I don't think she's against me, I just think she doesn't respect me or feel safe enough with me for some reason to want to listen to me saying no, or asking her to do something or to stop doing something. No one ever backs me up or tells her she mustn't treat mummy that way. I told her school what she was doing and the early help and none of them ever sat her down and said she mustn't destroy things or attack mummy. I've told her gran in front of her about attacking me, hoping she would reinforce the message, and she just says 'oh just leave her be'.

The only time I've ever seen some realisation in her eyes about her behaviour towards me was when a total stranger in the supermarket said to her 'youve got to listen to your mum', when she was kicking off. He walked off and she immediately did.

The other day I was on hold for the doctors and she was fine, we were sitting together on the landing outside her bedroom door whilst the hold music was on and she had her toys, and the call answered and I explained to her I needed to just make this quick phone call. As soon as I started talking to the other person on the line, she went and got a stool and tried to climb up on it right next to the bannistairs to frighten me. I got her down and removed the stool and then she started asking for an ice lolly, and I said 'not now I'm on the phone, I'll just be two minutes', and she started kicking me over and over again. I had to move her in the bathroom where there were no hazards, as she wouldn't stop and I'd been on hold half an hour to get an appointment so I couldn't call them back. Then she was shaking the door and kicking it over and over again, so the call took longer as I couldn't hear and had to hold the door closed. I kept saying to her the more you let mummy talk, the less time it will take me, but she wasn't having any of it. She's always like that if I try to talk to anyone.

Sorry for misunderstanding OP, being concussed etc must be incredibly difficult to deal with. I didn’t mean to minimise. Hope you get some good advice from others.

No it's fine, I appreciate that you reached out with support.

I just think we are in a culture where all ownership is out on the parent and in a country where we're told to suck up all feelings and learn to be okay with all these shitty things happening to us. We moved back here from a culture where the people around parents wouldn't allow the children to be so harmful to their parent and I regret leaving. Like even strangers would have no problem chipping in and telling the child to stop. Sometimes I think DD senses how outnumbered I feel here and it encourages her to keep trying to see me hurt. She's told me before she likes seeing me sad.

I honestly feel beaten down and weathered by her and I want to break this cycle, but it's hard without anyone backing me up and letting her learn it's unacceptable. I guess she knows it is acceptable because she still has me after treating me appallingly all day long. She's worse if she sees me happy and upbeat.

What consequences do you have in place at the moment for negative behaviour? If praise doesn’t work, does she like sticker charts or some other non verbal way of reinforcing good behaviour?

No sticker charts don't work because she just gets angry over not having the reward there and then. It just heightens her anger and behaviour and she will obsessed over the reward all week. Don't think she can cope with feeling out of control. The consequence is usually me taking away screen time or whatever toy she is breaking. Other consequences are if she's hurting me I'll remove myself from the room. Timeouts. The other day she pulled all the toilet roll off the roll in anger and threw it on the floor so she wasn't allowed to do anything else before rolling it all back onto the roll with my help and supervision. I threaten a lot to not go to an activity that's been promised etc when she's kicking off and sometimes that snaps her out of it. But not always. Last night she was in my bed as she's been poorly (not the reason for bad behaviour btw, she's always like this) and she tried to bite my breast, so I refused to cuddle her. That was the consequence. I had to leave the room as she was fighting me for a cuddle and I couldn't cuddle her until she was calm. I know when she's calm she won't try and hurt me again, but I've told her 'I know you'll do it again', because I can feel how wired she is. She had to say sorry once she was calm for me to cuddle her again.

Have you started the process of having her assessed?

Have you spoken to a GP about her behaviour and your concerns over neurodivergence or how far along the road to assessment are you?

Try reading "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene.

Is she saying "I hate you" etc in moments of overwhelm/high emotion?

It's very unlikely this behaviour is coming from what you describe as a lack of family support and friends.

It's much more likely that either she's within the bounds of normal but difficult behaviour or that there is an issue here such as autism or adhd.

You might find a book such as "the explosive child" helpful.

Most babies and toddlers do things that hurt people. They pull their mum's hair, they prod people, many hit or bite. At 5 your daughter is only just coming out of that stage which is developmentally normal for many children.

Explaining about how much it hurts doesn't really have much impact with pre schoolers. You need to either fix the situation so it can't happen (eg tie your hair up), distract, try to identify in advance when it's likely to happen (eg sharing a much loved toy) and then distract, and finally if it does happen remove from the situation and give consequences.

I'm bemused by the number of responses saying that this is normal for a five year old. It really isn't.

OP, you clearly need some help and support in managing your DD. I doubt very much that it's purely that she's influenced by the way the family treat you.

Do you have a children's centre near you? If you call social services and ask about parenting courses etc, you might find a source of help.
Talk again to the school to see if they've seen any signs of neuro diversity or lack of empathy for others.

Kindly, you are projecting adult emotions and processes on to a five year old. At that age, she won't understand your family dynamics or the cultural dynamics you're describing. She sounds very dysregulated, but five year old dysregulation isn't like adult dysregulation.

You describe that removing the toy/yourself when she is destructive or hurts you is helpful, so if that's working, keep on calmly removing things from her when she throws, leaving the room if she hurts you. Don't escalate, get angry or try to explain it hurts, stay calm each time and reiterate the rule "we don't throw things", "we don't bite", etc. This also makes it less interesting/stimulating if she doesn't get a big reaction.

Where are you with assessment, have you spoken with the GP about your concerns? Is she on any waiting lists?

Your consequences aren’t really consequences you need to figure out tougher consequences. DD pulls all toilet roll off so you make her put it all back on… then what? That alone isn’t a big enough consequence. If she’s hurting you, you remove yourself from the room… then what? You still need to follow up with something. The activities you threaten not to do and then she snaps out of it, do you then go do the activities? Given her behaviour is not a one off it shouldn’t be a threat it should be the activity is cancelled!

My DCs had grown out of hitting by 5. It sounds like unusual behaviour. I have old increase outdoor time and routines. Some children like to know what is coming next and find it stressful when they don't know what their day looks like

The problem with neurodivergence is that ‘normal’ parenting methods often don’t work. I was wondering about autism with a demand avoidant profile. I thought it interesting that she gave you a reason why she wasn’t beholden to you for passing something at the table. I don’t know if NT parents get how relentless parenting can be if a kid is ND and regularly dysregulated. Perhaps ask Mumsnet to move this to the SN Kids board?

I'm seeing this from a mental health perspective and I'm sorry in my view the problem is not the child from all you have typed. You seem to allianate yourself from family,friends etc, you seem to strangely have had major traumas from a child and a small child at that, there's a lot of hanging on to past, negativity,jumping from this to that. I think you need help tbh then you will be happier and then the child will be happier. Your environment right now does not sound safe for either of you.

Hi @Lackoffamilyrespect your situation sounds very difficult. I doubt your daughter’s intentions are there yet in terms of acting out on preplanned negative beliefs about you but she sounds incredibly impulsive with her behaviour and very aggressive which is not unusual for some ND children particularly those with ADHD whose behaviour is communicating unmet needs. I think getting her diagnosed and learning how to best approach her would help no end with this situation.

Is there ND in your family of origin too, ND and PD disorders can go hand in hand in some family types as part of inter generational trauma patterns, the lack of connection with children from some ND parents can cause trauma and even ND itself can result in trauma which can cause PD to develop in the person who is ND. This often gets discussed on here but having lived through it myself I’ve seen it first hand.

The problem with trauma though is it can lead to people isolating to protect themselves which brings its own trauma. Trauma is healed through good positive relationships and without those it can lead to a spiral of trauma. Lots of fight or flight being triggered over largely inconsequential interpersonal interactions. I think you developing a supportive community around you could really help to push back against that.