"I´m getting divorced and I DON´T want to keep the children!!"

[nofoodinthehouse]

Are you shocked?

It seems that more and more divorcing couples in Belgium are insisting that neither parent wants to look after their children. What do you make of that?!

Just to put in context, pre-school and after school clubs are the norm, with full time child care clubs during the school holidays. Most women go back to work within 3 months of birth.

Imagine it though to be the norm for the men to keep the kids, hey it could happen. Its a great threat isnt it. Tell him that if he wants to leave fine but you get the kids, I'll have them every other weekend.

OP: "That excellent child care facilities from birth may just have a down side?"

Wonder if there is a similar trend in Sweden with widespread use of nurseries from a young age.

I would be a bit sceptical about relying on an anecdote from a divorce lawyer. It is just that lawyer's opinion (who can only physically do so many divorce cases a year) about the custody situation and sweeping generalisation about the widespread use of pre-school and after-school clubs as the norm with ft childcare during school holidays and most women go back to work within 3 months. Shall I ask my Belgian non-divorcing colleagues what they think about this?

When I was a specialist lawyer, I was slow to claim to see a market trend based on the few cases I did. It is the height of arrogance.

It happened in Adrian Mole first

BTW if this is setting up a wohm bashing thread I am here and I am BELLIGERENT

I am asking the question, yes, if using child care facilities from a very young age may interfere with bonding. I think going back to work when baby is 6 months old is different to going back to work when baby is 2 weeks old or 3 months old. My understanding is that most women in UK have 6 months maternity leave, which is great, fathers more or less no paternity leave.

Let me clarify again, I have NO PROBLEM with women going back to work, I´m all for it actually.

I think the case of Sweden is entirely different. There it seems to be the norm for BOTH parents to share child care until the child is around 18 months. Whilch can only help the bonding experience?

The divorce lawyer is not claiming this is a market trend.. I wondered myself if there was a danger of this becoming more common. Would be fascinating to know what your Belgian colleagues make of this. I am in Flanders by the way, things may be very different in Wallonia.

If you did give up custody of kids what kind of access would you want? I think the idea of a 'new mummy' would upset me. Giving up so much daily input would be so hard and I work part-time.

Maternity leave in the US and in developed economies in Asia (which largely follows the US model) is notoriously poor. It would not be unusual for women to go back to work at 3 months. We could also ask ourselves whether this phenomenon is observed in those countries. Oh well, we don't even know what is happening in Belgium apart from one lawyer's observation, which you have admitted is not even a market trend.

OP, aren't we speculating here? Firstly, we are talking about a few isolated cases that this Belgian lawyer knows about (big deal). Then this association with the working/childcare situation in Belgium about widespread use of long hours childcare and short maternity leave.

How is the specific and the general related? Perhaps your lawyer friend can clarify what EXACTLY was the situation in those cases where neither parent wants to have custody. Isn't that the most relevant question?

Otherwise my guess is as good as anyone elses' - pretty worthless IMO. Otherwise, this would be (another) WOHM-who-returns-to-work-at-3-weeks-bashing thread. And this would not be the first one.

Come on, you don't really think this is new do you?

We have friends who are divorcing, and the wife's MIL actually phoned her to say "don't you dare think you are going to dump that kid on my son".

These are "ordinary" people.

I think it's quite idealistic to think that ALL parents would be at each other's throats fighting to have sole custody of their kids.

In the case of our friends, both parties will be significanly worse off financially now they are divorced, and it will be a strain to look after their DS while living in a studio-type apartment.

Re: going back to work "early" affecting your bonding, and making you more likely to give up your kids if you divorce... you are on VERY dangerous ground here.

Working or not working has nothing to do with bonding, how many SAHMs have PND and don't bond?

Blueshoes, clearly I´m not in the right place here, sadly. I thought this might be a forum FOR bouncing of ideas, for a CHAT, for speculation. But no idle gossip here?!

I am coming from the perspective that cheap, full time child care is an IDEAL, and don´t think many of you would disagree with that. I´ve repeatadly said that I am NOT WOHM-bashing.

FYI, though child care provision is fantastic, it is often not taken up fully. It is common for one parent to work 4/5 days and common for grandparents to care for grandchildren one or more days a week. Which is very child friendly.

I guess all I wanted to do is comment on the paradox of the situation - on the face of it everything seems to be in place to make life easier for families here, but families are not necessarily better off for it.

OP, I find very little to CHAT about. You are asking Leading Questions based on a few cases that no one knows the exact circumstances of. The only circumstances you have offered are generalisations about childcare and maternity leave in Belgium, completely unrelated to those cases, that very few people know enough about to even begin to challenge.

All I can say is Yes, I agree that the situation in Belgium could lead to lack of bonding and hence no parent wants custody in divorce? Eh? Or No, there could be lots of other reasons for neither party wanting custody in Those Cases - But of course!

HaventSleptForAYear, perhaps I am naive, ignorant and idealistic. I have never heard of this situation before and remain horrified. I can´t imagine foresaking responsibility for my DC, though the thought of being a single parent and in certain poverty terrifies me. Certainly I would be heading towards social housing WITH my DC rather than a studio appartment on my own.

Re bonding, I know of many mothers who took a long time to bond with their baby, myself included. If I had gone back to work quickly after the birth how would this have helped me bond and develop a relationship with my child? Of course SAHMs, including those with PND also have problems bonding with their baby. Would it help them or their child if they go back to work at that point?

I´m getting the distinct impression that many posters are reading this thread as WOHM bashing. How many times do I have to say this is not the case?

I think you are generalising about parents in Belgium based on anecdotes from one lawyer who has a handful of clients and was probably sounding off after a hard day.

You haven't given any evidence that would suggest this is actually a trend, and you've jumped to conclusions about working parents. Which is bound to piss people off.

Come off it, you are WOHM-bashing. You said excellent child care has a downside - suggesting working parents don't bond with their children. And that they see children as an inconvenience.

Blueshoes this is not a court of law.

I have shared an anecdote. People do share anecdotes, don´t they, as a matter of course. Some people were not shocked by it, which surprised me, others were.

The poor state of childcare facilities has come up in conversation in various countries. I´ve said just how GOOD it can be in - in Flanders and in Sweden. Maybe some working mothers are interested in that -I know I was when I found out.

I have not talked of any trend.

No intention to piss off working parents.

I´ll go away now; I know when I´m not welcome and when people aren´t listening.

One last time, I have nothing against WOHM.

... And all this based on idle gossip from a divorce lawyer, which may or may not be true.....

Isnt there something less emotive we could speculate about on a new thread?

Let say, I heard somewhere that kids should be banned from restaurants in Austria unless they are potty trained, as pooey nappies are unhygienic in an eating environment?
Ok, it is not true, but you dont know that?

I have no real views on anything you have said in your OP, without any proper articles to back your statements up, but your comment "Would be fascinating to know what your Belgian colleagues make of this" makes you sound like a journalist or something. If so, this should be in media/non member requests for which there is a fee.

*It happened in Adrian Mole first

BTW if this is setting up a wohm bashing thread I am here and I am BELLIGERENT*

Clearly that's better than being Belgian

I can't be bothered to actually care about this thread... was there a point to it?

Is she Wohm bashing? Honestly?

I agree with the OPs trail of thought. Where does is end, when it is entirely expected that both parents must work?

Ah, I've listened to all the shoite about how you have to .. but you don't have to, and that's that. You make different choices, you do other things. You do whatever it takes to be there for your kids.

I'm sorry, but I think that putting a child in nursery for eight hours a day, five days a week, signifies a fundamental failure in outlook.

Desi, you are the perfect example of the response this thread is designed to elicit. I rest my case.

Do you?

I don't think that anyone would deny that sending your baby to nursery/child to breakfast and after school club is not an ideal situation

I think it really depends on how after school club is organized.

I had a heavy heart every tuesday when my son went to the after school drama club. Another hour of lessons and doing as you are told after a long day from 9-3 pm having lessons? Not ideal.

It is totally different where we are now.

Afterschool club is run by the school, it is every day for as long as needed till it close at 5pm. When they enter the club, which is a bright and spacious room, with a kitchen corner, and tables, adjacent to the classroom wing, they are served a meal. It could be chicken, rice and vegetables, or fish pie, or toasties or pizza. After the kids tidy up together, then there is pretty much free play. There is a computer for playing games, there is a games room with fussball tables, table tennis, a lego room, there is a pillow room for pillow fights and for jumping around in, and for building houses out of pillows. There is also plenty of time for outdoor play in the playground or on the football field too. The afterschool club is for socializing after the lessons. Fridays are film days.

My son loves it, and he says he wont ever go back to London. I pay £100 per month for 10 hours per week after school club.

I dont think that afterschool club harms the child if they are well fed, looked after and have plenty of kids to play with and a variety of games on offer.

Oh Desi don't talk such crap. Different choices? Ooh, I know, shall I put food on the table tomorrow or not?

Oh I knew this thread was about wohm-bashing!

So Desi, how do you suggest that I support my children?

Should I rely on a man or should I rely on the state (I have no inherited money and am not independently wealthy)>

Both those choices are pretty fraught with complications IMO. S'okay probably to rely on a man for the diminishing proportion of marriages that don't end in divorce but tbh my DH doesn't really earn a whole lot and he has shown no inclination whatsoever to want to support me financially ...

Ah, but you're missing my point, quattro, and not for the first time

I'm long enough in the tooth to notice that individual lives are just that ... individual. You are in a situation which necessitates full time work and nursery/nanny/au pair provision.

I'm talking geo-politically. I generally do, because if I had to take into account every single individual on the globe before I posted, well ... I wouldn't post at all.

In my opinion, when a society evolves or devolves to a point here it it entirely necessary and expected that both parents must work in order to feel valued/have a roof over their heads, etc., then society must take a good look at itself.

Single parents, like yourself, are a different issue. There are two ways to go: take the state money, or go it alone. I applaud your ethic and your grit, but the OP was about two-parent families, and that is what I was responding to.

For the record, and not for the first time, I am a SAHM who works 35 hours a week. I can do this because I have a partner. Without a partner, I would be on benefits, because I don't have a career which would pay enough to pay for nursery fees.

So Belgium is now famous for 3 things - Plastic Bertrand, Stella Artois and ping pong children.