9 year old daughter hits, kicks, smacks, punches and scratches us. Don’t know what to do :(

[Bellesmummy12]

Hi I’m after some advice please (desperately so)..

My 9 year old daughter has always been a difficult child to parent. Everything has always been such a battle and for the past few years she has been physically violent towards me, her dad and grandparents. This is getting worse and dangerous. By physically violent I mean she kicks, punches, scratches, smacks and pulls hair. I very firmly tell her this is not okay and stop her hands but she will then keep trying or bang on the next door neighbours wall shouting help help my mums killing me (which obvs isn’t true). It’s if she is told no to something or if she can’t do something. She also hits herself in the head until she bruises. During her meltdowns which are occurring daily and lasting a good hour each time she screams, slam doors, swears, calls you every horrible name you can think of. Throws and breaks things. After all of this and she’s calmed down she wants a hug and she apologies. But no matter how much you try and explain her behaviour is wrong etc it’s always someone else’s fault never her own. Her consequences are removing privileges like screen time and me and her dad are always consistent but it doesn’t seem to work. She gets love and praise and hasn’t experienced any traumatic events.

We can’t go out much as a family anymore in public because of her meltdowns it’s too stressful. We haven’t had a holiday in over 3 years because when we did her melt downs are always worse. I’ve tried to get her in after school activities like swimming or gymnastics but every time we start a new club she runs out of the building.

Now my issue here is that school do not see these behaviours. She is not violent in any way there. Educationally she is on track. There were some issues where she was anxious about going to school in the past so they referred her to well-being support but she cried so she didn’t have to do it. She is also told off everyday for talking but school say this is normal.

I went to GP and school for help a few months ago who then referred to CAHM’s so CAMH’s sent the adhd and asd paperwork to school and the class teacher ticked not at all in every single box. I just know that camh’s are not going to pursue the referral now.

To add more context she also had some random seizures a few years ago over the space of several months ( her first occurred in school) and was diagnosed epileptic but she appears to have grown out of this now, she isn’t on any medication.

I’m so depressed about life right now. I’m desperate to get her help so if anybody has any advice I’d greatly appreciate it xxxx

It sounds like she is masking in school and then melting down at home. So challenging. Do you know CAMHS will not provide support? One would hope they'd take in your experience of your daughter at home as well as the teacher reports. Sounds like you're doing a great job in difficult circumstances!

When DS's teacher filled out his form he sounded like the perfect student (and he was generally very good). Fortunately he'd been observed by someone through SEND who had spotted some things like covering his ears in assembly. I also wrote down a lot of things I had noticed over the years. He then showed clear black and white thinking in the assessment and was diagnosed very quickly.
Hopefully CAHMs will be aware that girls in particular are very good at masking at school. Read up everything you can on ASD and note down every single little thing that she has shown that is relevant literally since the day she was born on the form you fill out.

Thank you both for replying this is helpful. I think CAMH’s have such a high demand in my area that they are prioritising the children who are struggling both at home and in school. I haven’t had their response yet so it may well be that they accept her but if not I have looked into the private route and it is really expensive so not sure if that’s an option for us. I am drained and want to be healthy so I can deal with this in the right way. Life is just so serious all of the time. We are pretty dull in the sense of not much goes on other than work school odd trip out, just want to be able to do normal family stuff and make lovely memories together.

Why don't you read up on how you would be advised to amend her routines if she were to be diagnosed, and just do it anyway?

Go back to the GP and log everything. Keep going back.

Ring charities for autism and ADHD and ask their advice.

What can you do to take the pressure down a little in all sorts of ways? Completely stop the attempts to join clubs. Completely stop trying tohave holidays. Instigate calming routines and see if you can make things even 10% better while you pursue support.

sounds awfully hard.

just want to be able to do normal family stuff and make lovely memories together Maybe the memories you make could be different ones. What would she choose to do if you asked her? A memory of her watching a film calmly with you has to be better than a memory of a meltdown.

Sorry this sounds really tough.

As you know, it is an uphill battle to get an assessment, but in the meantime there is nothing to stop you following advice and strategies that apply to neurodivergent children to see if they help.

Look at the PDA Society website - they have pages on distressed behaviours and helpfil
approaches for children: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/i-am-a-parent-carer/resources/

Look up 'low demand parenting'. There's a psychologist called Naomi Fisher who has done a series of online courses, you have to pay but they are really excellent - far and away the best parenting courses I've accessed (and in my desperation I've done loads!) https://courses.naomifisher.co.uk/low-demand-parenting

As for support at school, a few suggestions:
Have you spoken to the school SENCO and have they observed your DD? They might pick up on things the teacher hasn't?
Have you contacted your local SENDIASS? They can advise and help you when it comes to liasing with school.

If you suspect autism and/or ADHD, one option for assessment is 'Right to Choose' which means you can choose a private provider that accepts NHS funding, and ask your GP to refer. There's information online if you Google 'Right to Choose autism' and if you're on Facebook there's a helpful group:
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/LV17idCXz7HoSssR/

Lastly if you can afford it I would suggest getting a private Occupational Therapy assessment for her. They might identify some sensory needs and make some helpful practical suggestions to help regulate her.

Oh and I have seen Ross Greene recommended a lot, haven't read it myself yet but his book "the explosive child" is on my reading list!

I would start noting down what happens just before she has these meltdowns. Do they happen more in the evening when tired? Are they when she needs to change activity? Is it when you tell her -right now you need to clean your teeth ( is she better if you say in 5 mins you need to clean your teeth and set a timer).
Once you analyse what happens just beforehand, you may see a pattern and work out how to make the situation easier ( eg she has a checklist of things to do to get ready for bed - she may find it easier that the checklist is telling her what to do, rather than you).

See autisticgirlsnetwork.org/autism-and-girls/

If you can get any money together at all, go private - you won't get any help on the NHS, or if you do it will be years away.

When you get a diagnosis there is no cure and very little help so instead of waiting for that start implementing autism and ADHD friendly parenting methods now, and you'll see an improvement whether or not she does have either condition. If she doesn't respond well to demands then you need to look into PDA too. If an NHS assessment isnt likely you can look into going private.

Her behaviour is not her being naughty, it's an outburst of her holding herself together all day. Her behaviour and hitting is not ok but you can change the routine to suit her better. Heavy work, weighted blankets / vests, rephrasing instructions so that they are no longer demands.

Make notes of when the meltdowns happen. What happened before . Time of day. See if you can find a pattern.

What does she do when she comes home from school? Can she have some calming /regulating activities ? Drawing, colouring , listening to music, reading etc.

Can you make a safe space for her , not as a punishment but as a safe space to let out her emotions and calm down? She can kick ,scream , punch, throw whatever. Remind her you're there for her when she's ready.

Do a lot of work on her on self regulation. Not only expressing her emotions, but also how her body feels so she's able to identify them and eventually recognise her triggers/getting close to a meltdown herself.

Offer alternatives for what she can do when she "feels" it coming. Ask her what she thinks might help too when she's calm and chatty.

Offer two (acceptable) choices when you need her to do something. Like would you like the red top or the blue one? Will you brush your teeth now or after your story?

Look at social stories and make some specific to her.

Try and end requests with a thank you.

Praise the positive behaviours and be specific. So rather than good girl, say "thank you for waiting your turn patiently " or "well done for recognising you were getting frustrated and taking a break".
Catch her being good, even if it seems silly or something she's supposed to do anyway.

Give her a chance to "fix" her mistakes. Not for violence , but other outbursts.

Give her constant, real reminders. We're having dinner in 10 minutes. We're having dinner in 5 minutes, so finish off your drawing. We're having dinner in 2 minutes , put your stuff away. It's dinner time now, come sit down.

Sit her down and come up with some house rules and consequences for breaking them. Give her reminders /warnings about this and a chance to modify her behaviour.

Try and end requests with a thank you. Sounds daft but it works about 80% of the time. Wash your hands, thank you.

Try not to say no too many times in a row and rephrase your no's /redirect. Instead of no running , say walk please. Instead of no sweets, delay and say after dinner, or offer an alternative . Instead of no telly, say oh let's do Lego instead , then you can watch some telly after.

Clear expectations, a routine as much as you can and narrate the day as much as you can. When we get home you can have your quiet time , then we're reading your book.During quiet time or once it's over , we're reading your book, then we'll make dinner. And so on.

Be consistent.

Very importantly, pick your battles.

It's exhausting and time consuming and none of it it's a quick fix, but it should help to keep the days calmer and hopefully less negative.

Actually we got an assessment funded by the NHS via Right to Choose and it was relatively quick. It's a little known option, though!

Thanks so much for all of your advice.
I don’t know why I am waiting for CAMH’s to assess her like it’s going to magically solve everything. I will look into putting strategies in place then and see if that helps. There are definitely triggers such as hunger, tiredness, frustration or being inpatient about something so a lot of the time I can try and minimise them or not set her up to fail but other there appears to be no trigger whatsoever. We do have a particularly bad day when a child in her class or school has vomits as she absolutely hates sick being sick and being around sick so getting her into school following that is tough.

I did speak to a neuro hub it’s called where I am for some advice and they corrected me because I kept using the word tantrum but they said it’s a melt down not a tantrum so even small things like this I wouldn’t have known before.

Do be aware that for many children their ability to cope will fluctuate and it depends on a lot of factors so it's not always easy to consistently predict and prevent meltdowns. You might drive yourself mad trying to spot patterns. Just reduce demands as much as possible, make sure she is getting time to switch off, make sure she's had something to eat, try and build in opportunities for her to move her body and get sensory input. For many children, visuals help - we have a visual timer which can help with screen time and transitions, a visual timetable of the week, etc.

OP - I feel your pain. I am sure you are doing a better job than you realise.
DD was like yours. No trouble once at school, but getting her there was a nightmare. I also had no support from school.

She was diagnosed age 9, despite school dissagreeing.
As pp said - The Explosive Child was the only book that helped me.
Does your DD realise her behaviour is wrong? Does she realise she can't control it? These are all conversations we had with dd, and the book helped with expanding this.
On a positive note, DD is now doing really well and at university. We found a tiny secondary school (16 per year group) which really put her on a better path. The violence stopped, and she got really good GCSE's.
It does get better/easier. Keep at it. I think you know she lashes out at you because she knows you are unconditional love. 💐

Op, it sounds really challenging for you all.

behaviour is communication- what is she communicating to you? Distress, worry, anger, fear, anxiety… you know your dd best do be the one who tells others what she needs.

i agree with others, assume a neurodiversity and work with that.

if she is ND, she is unlikely to be able to control this behaviour, you need to reduce demands, be more aware that she is overwhelmed, consider reducing noise, sensory demands.

It’s reassuring to hear others who have been through similar themselves and have good outcomes. She hates talking about her behaviour after she’s calmed down she tells me stop talking like a teacher lol. But she has said before her head makes her be angry and that she doesn’t mean it she just can’t help it. I get comments from the public or family members that it’s because she’s spoiled or I’ve given her too much love or she’s short of a bit of physical discipline you name it we’ve had it said to us but I honestly don’t care what anyone thinks or says I just want her to not get to a point where she is losing control like this because it must be bloody awful mustn’t it. I am going to implement some of your suggestions and see if it helps because at this point I’m willing to try anything x

We had similar although my child is somewhat younger. A friend recommended the council run behaviour and well-being support service which you can access through a gp referral. The gp doesn't need to see the child, you just write down what you are experiencing at home. Took about 4 months for somebody to get in touch, then we had sessions as parents about the situation and ways to manage it. It really did help and they are so lovely they make you realise that you are not alone.

Big hugs

That sounds like emetophobia . Can you talk to her teacher about it and ask that if possible, when it happens she can move at a table further away/out of sight or range of vision?

Also, apologies for my very lengthy previous post. Must've been quite overwhelming. If you want to be more specific, you can post on here or PM me and I'll try to give you some more specific strategies/suggestions.

Make sure you take care of yourself too in all of this .

Hi OP,

I’m a Psychologist and i work in a CAMHS team, I also do assessments there and privately.

It is very common for females to make school work and completely meltdown when they get home. We definitely wouldn’t close in my nhs service if we had the context that you’ve described. However, screeners can sometimes mean people don’t meet criteria for an assessment and they might not even get past admin staff (who are not clinically trained to review screeners). If your referral is closed to cAMHS at point of entry just call the service and explain. In fact I would call the service either way tomorrow annd explain how hard things are at home and check up about the referral. You shouldn’t be left waiting very long after submitting the screeners. If this were my service and you called and explained this you would be alllcated for assessment and therapy, very likely as a priority depending on how severe we determined the behaviour to be. By that I mean an expedited assessment and therapy support for your family, possibly therapy for just her too alongside this. I also think you could be advised to attend an NVR group, which you can google. CAMHS teams generally run it but some charities do too so there may be an option to self refer in your are. There are lots of things that can be done here, this is something we manage often!

It sounds quite significant if people are getting hurt so where I am you wouldn’t be put on a waiting list, although the quality of nhs provision massively varies depending on area. Never write it off as being unavailable until you have spoken with them and understood what is available. My entire job is working with situations like this alongside the assessments.

I hope you get seen quickly OP!

We had a similar experience which peaked when DD was about 6.

She was diagnosed at 7 with ADHD and ASD. We had to pay privately.

Things that helped:
The Ross Green book The Explosive Child and the Jeffrey Bernstein book 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child.
NVR for us.
Play therapy for her.
Melatonin for sleep.
Telling the school what was going on. The SENCO was great.
We holidayed a lot at the same place. We've been to the same family owned holiday park in Norfolk about 12 times. We always try to keep something similar about holidays. For instance we had a moderately successful trip to Madeira so went to another Portuguese island.
I participated in someone's PhD research and realised that kids being violent to parents is a not uncommon problem but taboo to discuss.
Couples' therapy. It's all very hard on a marriage.
Seeing more of friends who got it and less of family who didn't.
Using the PDA PANDA strategies.
Adopting a "what works" strategy at home rather than "what ought to be." For instance, we don't really eat as a family (oddly enough we can in restaurants, as long as it's the one chain DD likes!)

Also, and I'm sorry to break this to you, but you'll need an EHCP so request an ECHNA now (I have set up several EHCP support threads on here in SEN). If you start now you might just have one in place for secondary!

I could have written the same post about my daughter. And in the moment she really truly despises me. But when it's passed she is lovely.

It is like being a literal and emotional punching bag.

I bought the explosive child, it is an interesting read.

Also DD had emetophobia for a while. I got a kids' book from Amazon for her and she got over it in due course. I can't remember the title but I'll try to find it.