I'm so upset and dont think i can cope with dd anymore, please help me (long, sorry)

[PleaseDontFlameMe]

Firstly, I've namechanged as i'm so ashamed of the fact that i have no control over my dd (10) and i really dont know what to do.

She has been cheeky and argumentative for a while now and we've always had a problem with bedtimes (it takes me sometimes an hour to get her to go to bed) but for some reason tonight has just been awful.

It started off when eating her tea, she dropped some noodles down her t-shirt and instead of picking them up and putting them on her plate, she threw them and they landed down behind the tv. I immediately asked her why she had done that and she replied 'because i wanted to'. I told her that it was unacceptable and that she should know at her age not to throw food around the house! Anyway, then it came to bedtime and she decided she needed a drink before she got changed into her pj's. I made her some orange squash and told her to drink it up then get her pj's on, teeth brushed and that i wanted her in bed by 8.30pm (which was 20 mins away). She then sat and sipped the orange squash so slowly whilst smirking at me and repeating 'and what happens if i'm not in bed by 8.30pm'. I told her that i was really fed up of her not going to bed when she was supposed to and that 11pm is far too late for her to be going to bed on a school night (it is sometimes later than this by the time i get her to go). I said that if she wasnt in bed by 8.30pm that she would not be allowed to go to her friends for tea tomorrow night. This was met with a reply of 'so what, i dont care'.

At 8.40pm she was still up and i had by this point told her numerous times to go brush her teeth and get into bed. To which she replied each time with 'no'. I'm ashamed to say that at this point i burst into tears and had to leave the room. She proceeded to turn the music channel on and sing along to whatever it was that was on there.

Eventually after i'd calmed down a little, i went back in to her and said, calmly, please dd i really need you to go to bed now, you have school tomorrow and you need to get some sleep. I'm really fed up with having this every single night and its really starting to upset me. She then started screaming at me and telling me i was a psycho .

Eventually, after many tears from both of us, she agreed to go to bed and i could hear her lying crying for about 15 minutes. I went in and had a chat with her and explained why i had been so upset and that i dont tell her to do things to be a spoilsport, that there is a reason for everything etc.

And now, I sit here typing this feeling like the worst mother in the whole world. I'm surprised my neighbours havent called ss because of the screaming and shouting from both sides .

Please dont flame me for any of this, i really dont think i could cope with that. I left my abusive xp (dd's father) 2 years ago and now it feels as though dd has picked up where he left off and is making my life a misery.

If you have managed to read to the end of this, thank you. Please can anybody offer me any advice? I really don't know what to do

bluejelly, thanks for that, it really is like living with a toddler a lot of the time. Especially the tantrums and sometimes she even takes to throwing herself on the floor and kicking like toddlers do!

The reason her bedtime is 8.30 is because I work fulltime and so she has to get up and be out of the house early with me so that she can be dropped at cm's on time. At weekends she is allowed in bed later - sometimes even 11pm or later if theres a film on that we're watching

I must say though that with anybody else, whether my cm, any of my friends or family, she is the most well behaved, polite child you could ever meet. I think thats why nobody in 'real life' believes me when i tell them how bad she is!

margoandjerry, you're right i don't ever want to be like him and yes, sometimes i say things to dd and can hear him in my head saying exactly the same things to me. Which ultimately makes me back down.

I do understand what you're saying though and i think tonight has made me realise that i do need to be strong with her. And that by being strong with her, its not abusing her, its giving her the stability which she needs.

We did used to have a chart and i bought some cute little stickers with her name printed on. Every time she was good, did what she was told without an argument, helped me around the house etc. she was given a sticker. Once she got to 5 stickers, she was rewarded with £1. However, i also used to take stickers off her when she was naughty, or we had to argue before she did something she was asked etc. I had to stop this after a while though because it ended up with her owing me money! It didnt seem to bother her at all ... maybe theres another thing i did wrong. Maybe i should just have rewarded her and not taken stickers away when she was bad.

Jammi that sounds like a really good idea. I may sit down with her tomorrow and see if we can agree the list ourselves. That way she can feel like she has some control (as another poster here has recommended!) and will know what the punishment will be if she misbehaves.

I'll then print it off and have it laminated and maybe stuck on the fridge or somewhere so that we can both see it whenever we need to!

I have gotten some really really useful suggestions and ideas from this thread so thank you all so much. I've also stopped crying now and feel like i can get this situation back under control. It may take time but i'm determined that i will do it!

This sounds very hard for you, and painful.
You are not a bad Mum.

Read Quattrocentros post, especially the tone of it, and then read your own posts back to yourself, especially the OP and the one at 21.53.

Can you see the difference between Quattro's approach and your own? Can you see the holes your dd works her way through?

You obviously have a difficult history with your ex, but you don't need to make things up to your dd. Don't apologise to her - she is trying to push you so far that you end up apologising to her!

Boundaries make children feel more secure, not less secure. The more you let her get away with things, the more she will feel at sea, and the more she will blame you for that feeling. Don't beg, or plead, or claim your own distress as the reason she must go to bed, just tell her it is bedtime and that is that. Give her 2 minutes to drink her drink - or tell her to take water up with her - and then take it away, calmly and politely.

Copy SuperNannys approach - act as if you were she.

This is a lot to implement in one go, can you see if you can get some counselling thourgh your GP for helping you all get over the effect of the abuse from your ex?

not flaming you at all. A lot of good advice on here.

One thing occurred to me that might be worth a try.

Is this behaviour just a cry for attention? If you work full time is dd at cm until you get home from work? Do you find you get home and start rushing around making dinner, hanging out washing etc..?

If so, try sitting in front of the telly/at kitchen table with dd just for five minutes for idle chat. Go to where she is - don't ask her to come in to you. Have a cup of tea or a soft drink and crackers. I found that five minutes of connecting at the end of the day made a lot of difference to my dc's behaviour in the evening. Dunno if it was coincidence but worth a try?

RRMM, yes i can certainly now see the difference (although tbh i didnt really pick up on it until you pointed it out ).

Thank you Quattrocentro, and all of you. I will save this thread and when i feel myself getting weak or feeling like an abuser, i shall pull it out and read through this again. You are all so supportive and i honestly dont know what i would've done tonight if you hadnt all been 'here' for me!

dolally, yes i'm afraid i do rush around after getting in from work doing bits of housework etc. I do talk to dd as i'm doing it but i hadnt realised that maybe it was having an effect on her.

I have had counselling because of the relationship, and also because my dad (who was my absolute rock) died around the same time me and xp split. I'm also on ad's because of these 2 things but i may go back to the doctor and see about getting some more counselling and maybe even increasing my ad dosage. If the gp thinks either of these may help the situation with dd then they'll be worth it

Hi PDFM,

I understand totally what you're going through as my DD (10.5) has been behaving in a very similar way lately, with lots of backchat and 'bovvered?' responses whenever I ask her to do something. She will (reluctantly) go to bed by 9ish, but reads for ages, often not falling asleep until after 10.30 (even on school nights).

Not sure I have any solutions for you, but just wanted you know to know you're not alone. I'm also a single mum who's struggling to explain to my DCs why I left (nearly three years ago) without being negative about their dad.

Good luck; I hope you at least find ways to improve the bedtime (and cheek) issues.

Dolally: great post: thanks.

wheresmyaga, thank you for your message. I'm sorry that you too are going through a similar thing. It's so hard trying to explain why the relationship didnt work without being negative or letting dd know what i went through/what hes capable of/how much i hate him for what hes done. so i completely sympathise with you.

It is good to know that i'm not alone, whilst sat here tonight going through that with her, i honestly thought that i must be such a bad mum because i dont know of anybody else's dc who go on like mine does!

thank you x

I try to hang on to the good bits: the times when DD and I do get on well and understand each other. It can be tiny things: the day before Mother's Day I taught her how to make me a cup of tea and the next day she brought me one in bed . It's happened a couple of times since then and reminds me that she can be very sweet (when she's in the mood!).

Seems to me that as time has passed, my DD has somehow (unconsciously perhaps) worked out a lot of stuff to do with her father (not abuse of the sort that you have mentioned, but still some very tricky issues) by herself. Perhaps the same will apply to your DD?

I think you have to try to 'feed' them age-appropriate information about what happened and why, but to some extent let them work some things out for themselves (easier if, like my DCs, they still see their dad). I hope my 'reasons' for leaving will gradually become clear to them without me spelling it out. Although it's also true that you have to give them some concrete reasons; otherwise they could think they were to blame etc.

Things can only get better. OK, I'm lying, but gotta get through the day?

Update:

Well, I tried it, and now feel worse than ever .

I picked her up tonight and we had a calm, chilled chat about her behaviour and i told her that i would not put up with it anymore and it had to stop now. We agreed that she should be in bed by 8pm (this was at 5.30pm) and that if she wasnt in bed by 8pm she would be grounded tomorrow night and not allowed to play out with her friends.

So she had her tea, got her pj's on and everything was fine. We were getting on ok and i was really quite at how easy this seemed to be! I told her that i thought she was now mature enough that i shouldnt have to tell her over and over again to go to bed and that i really didnt like shouting at her and us falling out every night. She accepted this and we agreed that she would watch the clock and at 7.50pm she would go to the bathroom, brush her teeth and be in bed for 8pm. Fabulous i thought, i've obviously sold it to her well!

At 7.30pm she decided she wanted to tidy her room up again! So i said ok but remember that we agreed about you going to bed at 8pm etc. She said yes i have a clock in my room so i will watch that. At just after 7.50pm i shouted to her (we're in a flat so her bedroom is next door to the living room) and said 'dd you may want to check the time about now'. She replied saying 'yes ok mum'. Anyway, after i'd reminded her a few times, it got to 8pm so i went into her bedroom and said 'have you seen the time?'. She pointed to the clock and said 'yes mum its only 7pm' and grinned at me - she had turned the clock back an hour!!

So i told her that i was disappointed she had done this and had broken her agreement with me and she starting shouting at me and called me a 'Twat' . I perservered, remained calm and said 'ok dd well it's now 8.05pm, you've broken the agreement so you will not be playing out tomorrow night. now go and brush your teeth'.

15 minutes, 1 broken money box, 2 upturned plants and lots of tears later she eventually got into bed. She has gotten up a couple of times and said 'but mum i dont want to be grounded' to which i have replied again stating about broken agreements etc.. and that i will not change my mind. I actually think she knows that i mean business this time, she looked quite shocked at how calm i was and how i wasnt backing down!

But, she is now lay in bed and i can hear her crying, saying she hates me and that she would kill herself if she could .

Did i do the right thing? I feel really awful! I do realise this will take time but i wasnt expecting her to tell me she hates me etc.

Be strong!!!!!

You were brilliant. Follow through on her not playing out.

As for the tears, saying she hates you etc - well all par for the course I reckon. Ignore it, she's just trying it on.

(By the way 8 pm is quite early for a 10 year old - could you tell her she has to be in bed at 8 but can read/listen to music until half past? I hate getting straight into bed and turning the light out, I like to read for a while first.)

PDFM - hey well done. Have just been reading through all the posts and there has been some really good advice.

Let her cry - this is blackmail - she probably will think you will go in to her and say awww I wont ground you.

My DS1 (nearly 11) often says he wants to kill himself when he is not very happy at something I have asked him to do or if he has been grounded or banned from something.

Keep up the good work.

Agree with what Sidge says though about 8.00pm being a little early for lights out.

DS1 (nearly 11) and DS2 (8) - their bedtime over the last I would say 3 months has crept up to around the 8.30 mark in the week and even then, they read or listen to their mp3's or sometimes sit in bed and do their guitar practice. I think as they get older they need less sleep and as long as their heads hit the pillow by 9.00pm I am happy.

You absolutely did the right thing. She was testing you and you remained resolute. Her crying and behaviour now is just a way of testing you further. It won't last forever.

I have been following your thread and just wanted to say, "well done you!" - Stick with it and you may well see the change you are looking for!

My DS is only 6 so i've no direct experience, however I do have friends with older kids and to be honest the ones that play their parents up are the ones who get a reaction

Maybe try sitting her down and telling ehr what the new rules are, what sort of things are unacceptable and what time she has to go to bed and what the consequences will be (i.e. if she throws food around, she will have to clean the kitchen or whatever, if she does not go to bed on time then she can't watch TV in the morning etc, if she does other things that are not acceptable in her house then she will lose priledges) and certainly do not let her go to her friends for tea tomorrow.

That being said also try to find some kind of reward when she is good, like doing something together so she gets your (good) attention, not just pocket money.

And try hard not to cry when she does not do as you have asked, she has got a reaction then, walk out the room and ignore her.

I could have written that a couple of months ago and yet I have no abusive nasty relationship to explain it. All my excuse is that I love my DD and don't want her ever to be upset or hurt and only want her to be happy (as you do) and yet she's stil a little sod.
i can say all the usual 'it's just a phase' 'she's testing boundaries' stuff but to know that and have to live through it are very different things.
stick to your threats - just don't threaten anything that will make your life harder (i once banned the TV for a week - longest 7 days ever).

Thanks for the reassurances, I kinda knew that she was trying it on and trying to blackmail me but i just wanted to check with you guys that i was right IYKWIM.

The reason i said 8pm tonight is because for the past few weeks it has been very late by the time she has gone to bed and she is very tired. It can sometimes take me anywhere up to an hour to get her up in the mornings and when i picked her up from cm's this evening, cm told me that dd had fallen asleep on her couch when she had gotten in from school.

I know that when she's tired her behaviour gets worse and so when we had our chat tonight, we had both agreed that she was very tired today and that 8pm was a reasonable time for bed.

I think 8-8.30 is a perfectly reasonable bedtime for a child her age. What I would suggest is that you make something nice out of the time after she has done her teeth/got into bed. Make it a special contact time. My dd (11) still likes me to read to her, but if your dd feels too old for that maybe just a woman-woman chat about something pleasant and funny and relaxing. Dd had a migraine last night so couldn't have her story, but I sat and chatted to her about when I was young and it seemed to work the trick.

I know this sounds like hard work, but if you could tweek it so that she actually looks forward to bedtime, then you'll cut out all the exhausting arguing.

My dd is argumentative enough, but bedtime is never a problem, as she's actually looking forward to our special time together.

I absolutely agree about not giving in to her in an argument- but even better if you don't have to have the argument in the first place

poor you. we all feel shit when things like this happen, so don't feel like a bad mum.

haven't read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not repeating; but it sounds like your dd is testing the boundaries -- she is coming to a point in her life where she wants more control over herself, but hasn't quite got the maturity to express that in an adult way.

why not take her out for a lunch/ hot choc/ ice-cream, sit her down, and say something like, 'I really hated that row last night, and I don't want to go over it all again. But I wanted to ask you how you think we might avoid that happening ever again? It seems like bedtime is a real problem (but we all have to go to bed sometime). what do you think we should do to make it easier?'

She might say, 'let me go to bed whenever I want', and you'll have to give a reason why you can't do that (you're worried about her health and school performance), but perhaps you could compromise a bit? Let her pick one night a week when she gets herself to bed, or if she gets ready and in bed before X o'clock, you won't say a word, but if x o'clock comes, she can expect some naggin and then a follow-up consequence (get her to suggest what that might be, maybe?).

BTW, I got this technique from reading How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids WIll Talk, which really is exceptionally helpful best parenting book I've read.

Good luck and give yourself a break.

sorry, just read what happened last night, and I think you did a great job! Now, stick with it, and whenever she complains, keep repeating that you can try again: now she knows You Are Serious.

I think Cory is right, she may well be trying to get your attention, and if she can't have positive attention, she'll go for negative. Why not try reading a longer book together, 1 chapter at a time each night? SHe may seem waaaaay too cool for this, but maybe she secretly wants to be treated like a little girl sometimes?

PDFM, no answers I'm afraid. Just wanted to reassure you - it could have been me writing that. DD1 is 10 in August.