GP’s manner over babies vaccines

[SLiath]

I just had a voicemail from a woman at my GP’s practice. The only way to describe her tone is condescending. She asked if I had a chance to speak with “hubby” about getting immunisations for my two twins. I am a single mother. I had the first round which made them very poorly and declined the second for the time being I was concerned for their health. They were born premature and we spent 5 weeks in NICU so didn’t want anything impacting their feeding. She then stated with a very snarky tone that if I was not having them immunised I need to go to the practice to sign a form because the “child health surveillance team keeps emailing her.” I have had some hesitance to get the vaccines due to some mistrust in the NHS. This voicemail has now increased that trust. Has anyone had a similar experience?

I have a nephew who was very poorly as a baby. He had a liver transplant at age 2.
He cannot have certain vaccines due to them being live.

Those that can and do have vaccines massively help those that can't.

Get your baby vaccinated. The benefits massively out weigh the tiny risks.

You said
“Yeah, my daughter is severely disabled with no chance at a normal life, but at least she's not going to infect anyone with polio.”
and
“I have been told by medical professionals it's due to the vaccine”

which is why I asked.

I was being sarcastic as you were using polio for an example. I'm not going to talk about her specific injuries and the vaccine that caused them when most of the people on this thread are so nasty and unable to accept a different opinion.

😳

OK

I believe you.

Vaccines like anything we administer in the name of medicine can have side effects. Some mild some moderate some severe. The fact the vaccine damage payment scheme exists proves that very occasionally a vaccine can cause a serious reaction and consequences. It’s very rare but it does happen. Being open to that is just common sense and we have to apply risk vs benefit and for the majority that works out just fine.

If medical professionals agree as well then that’s good as hopefully you will get support which seems to be lacking on here. Vaccines are amazing things but sometimes they cause awful side effects we can’t just pretend that doesn’t happen. Look at the Covid vaccines and what happened with one of those - nothing is perfect and shouting down and gaslighting those who have first hand experience of adverse reactions won’t help anyone.

I can’t see that anyone on this thread has been shouted down or gaslit for experiencing adverse reactions, which of course exist and as you mention are very rare, and one must look at population risk (minimal) vs benefit (immeasurable).

The OP is wondering whether to vaccinate their children, because she didn’t like the tone of voice of an NHS secretary and then some others on the thread are simply imparting misinformation about vaccine effectiveness to support decisions not to vaccinate. That is harmful and won’t help anyone.

Agree. I don't think anyone has said risks don't exist! Of course the do. They do with anything.
Walking to the bus stop in the morning is a risk. Taking a paracetamol for the first time is a risk.

Of course risks exist. As the above says the benefit massively outweighs the risk to the person getting the vaccine and those that cannot.

Look at the world 100 years ago. People barely lived to 50. Because of disease.

I'd rather explain to my child they are ill because I got them vaccinated at a minimal risk than explain they are ill because I went against solid good science backed stats backed advice to not.

I had mumps in my 20s. It was awful and I nearly died. But my mum got me vaccinated. Which probably saved my life because it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

for experiencing adverse reactions, which of course exist and as you mention are very rare, and one must look at population risk (minimal) vs benefit (immeasurable).

I think that adverse reactions always feel minimal when you’re not the one experiencing them !
They also look very rare when again you haven’t experienced them or don’t know anyone who has.

I’ve experienced adverse effects from vaccines twice. Once as a baby and then as an adult. It has had implications for me that still have a huge impact on my quality of life (aka I’m now disabled)
dc1 had a reaction to a vaccine too. Thankfully with no long term impact.

Maybe it’s time to stop over inflating the benefits (esp as the benefits are variable depending on the vaccine) and stop minimizing the adverse effects (which we know are under reported due to bias - vaccines are good!!! Can’t be the reason why you are experiencing <insert reaction>).
This doesn’t mean we should stop using vaccines. I’m not anti vax. I’m vaccinated so are my dcs.

But I’m fed up with the narrative says all vaccines are amazing. And that we’re not supposed to ever acknowledge the devastating effects vaccines can have too.
Both the fact one is taking a risk with a vax and the fact they are (usually) saving lives can be true at the same time.

Look at the world 100 years ago. People barely lived to 50. Because of disease.

The big thing that happened is sanitation.
Aka clean the water. Living in better housing. Better nutrition.
Thats what made the biggest difference.
Vaccines? Sure they helped. But again why the need of bigging up vaccines?

I'd be snarky and condescending too in this situation. I am not going to engage with the anti-vaxxers on this thread either.

Health visitors in some countries are walking miles to vaccinate children- risking death in some cases- and you have decided not to vaccinate because of the tone of a busy secretary?

Beggars belief.

But great swathes of the world still live with poor sanitation. If fact if I had to put money on it it would bet more people are living with poor sanitation today in the world than 100 years ago.

To be clear I am not saying vaccines are the only reason people live longer now.

Many reasons for that. But one of those reasons is people die less from diseases now that we have vaccines for.

Vaccinated your child, don't vaccinate your child.... but make sure you read the scientific facts and benefits before you choose not to.

As I said in a previous post I personally would rather explain to my child they are unwell because I chose to vaccinate them at a small risk than explain they are unwell because I chose not to.

Best wishes anyway to the OP.

You’d lose your money.

People with poor sanitation today also tend to have very little to no vaccine coverage.

Much of the diseases caused by poor sanitation there are no vaccines for…ie no vaccine for E. coli, no vaccine for streptococcus, …

As I said in a previous post I personally would rather explain to my child they are unwell because I chose to vaccinate them at a small risk than explain they are unwell because I chose not to.

@Cluelessfirstimer
As I said in a previous post, it’s always easier to say that when you aren’t in that position yourself - aka your child has never had any issues from a vaxs, bar the two days of feeling slightly unwell.
You just have to look at the way parents whose children have had ‘adverse events’ react to new vaccination. Many parents then take the decision to either not vaccinate or spread the vaccination or only do some if them. Often with the support of their doctor.

My dc ‘only’ had minor issues that lasted about 4~5 years and affected him enough that school labelled him as ‘disabled by those symptoms’.
But yes compare to me, who is now disabled, it was minor.

If your dc had been permanentally disabled by a vax, I doubt you’d be as secure in your knowledge it was OBVIOUSLY the right decision.

For the record, in case you missed it, I’m not antivax.
But I’d never be casual about a vaccine. I would never assume all vaxs are the same re danger or efficiency. Nor would I always assume it’s always the best solution. Or that receiving so many vaxs nowadays vs 20 years ago is right. Or that the timing from the NHS is the best etc etc

Not here to argue.

Of course I may not feel the same way if I had had personal experience with negative side effects.

My point is for me personally I could not face telling my child they have something because I chose to not get them vaccinated.

That's all. I'm not pushing the OP into making any decision either way. Nor have I put down any ones specific comments or opinions. Just expressing mine.

You are totally entitled to yours too.

Mumsnet is notoriously pro any vaccine and will remove anything at all against them so here really isn’t the place to discuss the pros and cons of vaccines, you’re only allowed to be pro vaccine on here! 🙄

That's like saying everyone is pro-food. Vaccines save lives. Most people alive today wouldn't be without vaccines. Since their discovery more children survive childhood than don't, before it was other way around. Many more people would be disabled. High vaccine rates and herd immunity has made some forget what a privilege it is to have them.

Yes, people on mumsnet tend to have some common sense and understand that watching a few videos on youtube doesn't constitute 'doing my own research'.

If you want 'ur bubz ur roolz hun', you're looking for netmums.

Well that took me on an interesting little detour :)
According to WHO 1.5 billion people today live with poor sanitation.
Global population 100 years ago was 2 billion. Don't know what percentage of those had good sanitation. I suspect a far few number lived in massivly overcrowed shanty towns, a hot bed for spread of infection, back then though.

I think that it's very detrimental to all concerned when HCPs/receptionists make snarky remarks and the tone of communication is very clearly not friendly.

OP was worried about the jabs in the first place. It would have been far better for someone to have had a more civil conversation with OP where the fact that her twins had been quite ill after the first jabs was acknowledged and reasoning given that it would be better to have the next set of jabs as the babies were a bit older, they'd had a dose previously etc etc and would likely not be ill like that the second time.

OP, it is the best thing to do, to get your kids these particular vaccinations, despite the way you have been treated.

Most of the western world is pro vaccine, unless you specifically seek out spaces that aren't...

Well given that nearly 100% would not have had indoor plumbing, sewage treatment plants did not exist nor did water treatment plants….I’d say 1.9 billion had poor sanitation in 1924.

That's not true, 100 years ago a typical working class family in a developed country had one adult spending their whole day cleaning and an unclean house was a source of great shame.

By the 1890s, flushing toilets were widespread and the first sewage treatment plant was built in 1865.

Maybe you're right (or wrong) with your 1.9 billion figure and I would have lost my money? I couldn't find a number, in my short search, for people with poor sanitation 100 years ago.