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Parenting

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Original poster

Right Alfie Kohn types...sort this one out please...

53 replies

Fillyjonk · 15/04/2008 19:28

Ds is 4, 5 in August.

He is just behaving so bloody badly.

He is doing naughty things on purpose. Examples-pushing over the pushchair and then jumping on it. Jumping on us repeatedly when we've asked him not to (he is FOUR, it bloody hurts). Splashing about in the bath to make the water go over the sides. Loads more. I have two younger kids and his behaviour is dangerous to them at times.

I don't want to use a pasta jar or similar. I don't want to use reward or punishment. And I don't especially like using consequences. But today was so incredibly bad that I have done so, and have cancelled a playdate (I did use a spurious logic to get to why the playdate should be cancelled but really, it was about that being what he responded to).

I think sometimes he is naughty on purpose, and sometimes he doesn't THINK, but it is driving me mad.

Thoughts?

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juuule · 15/04/2008 19:32

When he jumps on you have you let him know it hurts?

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 15/04/2008 19:35

oh yes

he giggles

this is actually concerning me a bit

we do a LOT of talking-the behaviour isn't just being let slide

He is quite often lovely, but sometimes impossible.

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FrannyandZooey · 15/04/2008 19:36

well to be fair to you, it is ok to cancel playdates because of awful bonkers behaviour, because there is no way I am subjecting other people to really annoying stuff like deliberate naughtiness, and I will tell him so

erm I am never any concrete help on these threads (as you know am not exactly model AKer) but

it will pass 2)keep being boring and banging on eg "ok now stop and think. What did you just do? How do you think we felt? What have we said before about xyz? How can we stop this happening again?"
it will pass
the weather is getting better and we can let them run around like mad foxes lots more soon
email AK and ask HIM, the bugger

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FrannyandZooey · 15/04/2008 19:37

no we have giggles now when being ticked off
it is nervous attempt to deflect disapproval in ds's case and has become habit

FrannyandZooey · 15/04/2008 19:38

oh oh oh oh

number 6) it is HORMONE SURGE
you know, the S Biddulph thing. Is he any use on this one?

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 15/04/2008 19:44

ah I am glad you said that re giggles franny, that though had crossed my mind but i thought, no. Why, i am not sure.

he is lovely with other people

If I try 2 he giggles and runs off. And AK does not actually mention locking them in a basement as an option

hormone surge had considered but thought no, that would be too atrocious as it might then last 2 more years .

I may email AK and ask him for advice in dealing with an actual child, that is a good idea, yes....

I think the problem may be escalation after I try to discuss things and he refuses to listen to my fabulously thought out logical explainations.

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FrannyandZooey · 15/04/2008 19:45

so what is the MAIN problem with it
the danger
the annoyance
the worry he is getting away with all sorts and Going To The Bad
something else?

juuule · 15/04/2008 19:48

Like F&Z said 'it will pass'. Just got to keep repeating yourself until he understands. It's hard work. Keep removing him from the situation with an explanation. If he keeps doing it then get cross. You've explained, you've been nice, now you are cross.
I have spoken to my children and told them why not to do things. If they ignore me then I tell them I'm serious. It doesn't always work at the time but I also try to make them aware at other times when something similar happens to them and upsets them that it's unpleasant and that's how I feel if they hurt me because sometimes I think they think parents are invincible and you are pretending when you say it hurts.
With the pushchair I'd probably ask if he didn't like it otherwise why is he trying to break it. Or something like that.

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 15/04/2008 19:53

hmm

I am concerned he will hurt someone or something (as he has-things at least)

I don't know what to do here. picking him up and putting him in his room seems wrong.

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Original poster

Fillyjonk · 15/04/2008 19:54

oh pushchair he'd say "because I think its funny to break things"

I am explaining and explaining.

It has always worked til now

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juuule · 15/04/2008 19:55

If he's going to hurt someone or damage something can't you tell him and then distract him with some activity? Get him to help you out with something?

juuule · 15/04/2008 19:58

What about getting him something that he could break? I presume you've tried asking him how he'd feel if it was one of his things that got broken. Otherwise, at this stage, I think you've got to move it out of his reach or move him away from it.

morningpaper · 15/04/2008 20:03

You see this is the kind of thing I cannot BEAR parents letting carry on

I would NOT invite him to my house to play or ask you round to sunday lunch

I understand the principles but I would absolutely not allow this sort of behaviour and the 'it was pass' school of thought is SURELY going to make you lose friends/social events?

Email AK and let me know what he says and whether he ever is invited out to lunch

FrannyandZooey · 15/04/2008 20:05

well, it will pass mp
I am not saying "don't do anything, let him go on breaking stuff because it doesn't matter'
I am saying "this is really hard and while we try to think of solutions remember it will pass"
because Filly probably feels like she is going to be dealing with this for the rest of her life and that it will only get worse
and it won't

juuule · 15/04/2008 20:13

I agree that it does pass and they mature and the message gets through(or at least it does/is doing with my children). They also behave when out unless they are tired or there is something wrong. They also quickly catch on that if they act up while out then we go home. They are not just whisked away home though. They will have been told why and how to behave so that we could stay.

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 16/04/2008 09:05

he's never done this when out. If he was inconveniencing others, or if it was costing us friends, that would be one thing. Its not. He is fine with other kids, and well behaved at other people's houses. He gets that different houses have different rules, eg we allow jumping on the downstairs sofa (it being over 20 years old)- he would NEVER jump on anyone else's sofa! Please don't think I would be rude enough as to let him break anyone else's stuff.

This is actually rare bahaviour really. Perhaps twice a week, at most?

I have been thinking on it though.

He is what normally happens.

ds is rushing about, caught in the midst of exuberance, but being 4 years old and suprisingly clumsy, he knocks stuff over. This happens mainly in the hour before the bedtime routine starts, when he seem too wired to do anything else.

I point out that his behaviour is antisocial. I do this in different ways depending on the length of my fuse, but I certainly do the explainaation thing, and the non-judgemental thing, a fair bit of the time. Though I also shout "oh fgs STOP THAT"

He starts giggling and rushing around and THEN we have the deliberate tipping over of pushchairs and so on.

so actually, it is probably something I am doing at 2 which is triggering this behaviour.

Of I could just let him watch tv (am serious, though I am not sure how to plug it all in...)

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iamdingdong · 16/04/2008 09:17

Maybe he needs something to focus his energy during that hour, if that seems to be the trigger e.g. something creative that can be his and not related to the younger ones? Then you can get them off to bed and give him some attention on his own? Not sure, I don't have the younger sibling issue, but have twin girls just a few months younger and one has similar behaviour, with giggling/ignoring of any discussion whilst the other will happily engage in a far too eloquent and rational argument debate about the pros and cons of her behaviour, which I generally lose

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 16/04/2008 09:27

that is an idea worth considering, actually

It is happy hour in hour house though, but maybe I can find a way to give him space

I think it is unwinding from the day and he needs to physically let off steam.

Actually, perhaps a post supper bike ride might work for him.

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Original poster

Fillyjonk · 16/04/2008 09:28

oh and lol re the rational debate with the other one. If I tell either of mine off, the other will defend them

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nkf · 16/04/2008 09:38

I don't get it. Are you seriously saying that there this four year old is doing things that couuld be dangerous to other children, you believe it is done deliberately (ie he knows it is wrong) and there are no consequences?

iamdingdong · 16/04/2008 09:40

oh yes, they defend each other to the hilt, pair of little minxes!

yurt1 · 16/04/2008 09:43

I would read 'Don't shoot the Dog' by Karen Pryor. Then Read Alfie Kohn. That will hopefully help you understand how his method still uses reinforcement (just in a different way to a pasta jar). His method still relies on reinforcement to work (so won't work if what you're doing isn't reinforcing if that makes sense). Then find your own middle ground that works for your family.

Sixer · 16/04/2008 09:53

Filly you really are lucky if it is only a certain time of day. DS 4.4, his brother 6. I have come to realise that being at home during this time of day is my worst nightmare. Our solution, dinner by 5.30 then out to the field with balls or park. Then home bath, bedtime routine. It's either this or watch the dog go into hiding whilst cushions are being launched, sofa turns into a trampoline (I don't allow bouncing on furniture), DS hearing fails and everyone including me is out of control. (I end up shouting, which I hate).

Original poster

Fillyjonk · 16/04/2008 09:54

no, I don't think you do get it nfk. I haven't said that at all. There is another thread going on about AK in parenting if you want to understand how it works. This thread was directed at people who understand how attatchment parenting and so on works, I'm not going to defend my approach in general on here.

I agree that he uses reinforcement in the same way as any other parenting "technique". Actually I think there is a good arguement that we all do, every day, in every social interaction. I do prefer this method and its worked up to now. Will look up the book though.

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ahundredtimes · 16/04/2008 09:54

Oh FJ. I had this - a slightly wired 4 y-o and two younger ones. Don't panic.

I put it down to this in no particular order:

Attention seeking (actually that is usually top of most of my lists).

You are v. tired - so their behaviour seems worse somehow. Also you did FOUR in big letters. I thought ds1 should get a job when dd was born, I thought he should be about 12.

Juggling the needs of a 4 y-o boy with those of a baby.

My best advice would be find other people, use dh a lot, encourage and allow him to pursue 4 -o interests. Tell him - when the the baby is asleep you and me are going to dig a hole in the garden, do the washing up, something active. Lots of attention.

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