5 year old boy - is this normal or is this signs of ND?

[Queencam]

Our (almost) 5 year old son is in reception - August baby so youngest in class. His teacher asked to speak to us today and told us the following;

• he is unable to concentrate - is very easily distracted
• he can’t follow instructions - has to be told asked repeatedly
• has poor spatial awareness
• has poor fine motor control
• he will miss all of the upcoming benchmark assessments
• he has poor concept of personal space / boundaries - puts his hands in other children’s faces or grabs them

The last one they said there’s no malice and he’s being playful, doing it when he’s excited and they’re playing together and he takes it too far. But it’s not on and he has to stop it.

they also said he’s “lovely” and “clever” and they truly think he can’t help a lot of this behaviour. He cannot sit still and seems to have no impulse control.

I don’t know what I’m asking really but I feel worried and sad and wondering what is going on with him. Is this within range of “normal” 5 year old boy behaviour or does he has special educational needs or is he neurodivergent in some way?

they’ve recommended another SEN assessment so we will ask the school for that asap. They did one earlier this year and the SENCO had no major concerns.

anyone any experience of this?

First question I'd want to know would be what SEN assessment does the school do and are they qualified to do it?

Everything you describe can be typical in 4/5 year old boys -but what I would say is that your little one does it more than other children in his peer group otherwise school wouldn't have said anything to you

It maybe a watch and wait approach might be useful -as you say he is the youngest in the year
But it may also be useful to ask the school to put their concerns in writing and then share that with your GP to see if they have any concerns

Did you have any concerns before school brought it up?

You could marry those signs up to various conditions or it could be nothing.

Working memory, processing challenges, executive function, dyspraxia would cover most of them in one way or another.

• he is unable to concentrate - is very easily distracted - is this true all of the time? After a set of amount of time? For certain activities
• he can’t follow instructions - has to be told asked repeatedly. - Don't tell him, visual prompts or written tasks, chunk activities.
• has poor spatial awareness - OT activities and games,
• has poor fine motor control - the muscles sides of this can be trained with practise. Doing hama beads, using tweezers, eating dry Cheerios as a snack - this skill is important for pen grasp.
• he has poor concept of personal space / boundaries - puts his hands in other children’s faces or grabs them - social stories and teaching him about people's own bubbles and not to pop them by going into them.

Always look for physical problems first and get eyes and ears checked over the summer (or sooner)

Another vote for potential dyspraxia, but without the child in front it’s impossible to know. If school are concerned have they talked about onwards referral for proper assessment?

Well they do sound as if they could be symptoms of ADHD. Was that suggested?

It’s honestly not the end of the world if so OP. With a decent learning support plan and maybe other support, he can still fulfil his potential, academically and socially.

I know it’s a shock when it’s first suggested. Take your time.

Children aren't supposed to be still though. He's only 5, it's early. Som3thing to be aware of but try not to worry too much. I think that's expecting a lot from a 5 year old.

Yes it does sound like it. I agree with PP about the school’s assessments - on what grounds are these? Will it be to assess if he needs extra support in school? If so definitely go ahead with that, I wouldn’t say SENCOs are experts at spotting things though. My now diagnosed ADHD 9 year old was assessed by the SENCO - she had to complete the forms sent by the referral we had made for ASD/ADHD, and she basically said “no concerns”. I’m familiar with those forms though and the majority of what you’ve listed are on them.

It’s hard to tell; if they’re flagging it then it’s because it’s outside of the normal range, otherwise they’d not be calling it to your attention, but the tricky thing is that something like 90% of kids diagnosed as SEN just so happen to be summer borns so it’s hard to know if a lot of it is coming from the fact he’s just too young to be in a formal setting. Could you speak to them about allowing him to re do reception? It’s far too little to expect kids to sit still. Feel so sorry for summer born boys. It may be that he has additional needs on top of this disadvantage too of course, what did the school suggest???

But he clearly stands out from the other children in the class or they wouldn't have mentioned it. If the school suggests any further assessments go along with this but it might be something that will just improve with time. It's not the end of the world either way.

Thanks for all the responses.

They have a qualified SENCO. I’m not sure what exact assessment she did but she spent time with him in class and observed his behaviour. That’s all I know.

As we’re asking for reassessment I’ll ask for more information this time. I definitely need to understand it better.

Did we have concerns - from time to time, some. His speech was a slow to develop, but he was a covid baby and has no problems on that front now. He went through a phase of flapping his hands when overstimulated- too much noise / people. But I haven’t seen him do that in a while now. And he can be quite overfamiliar with people - including strangers. We went to York Railway museum last month and he spontaneously ran up to a member of staff and threw his arms around her.

we also notice how hyper active he is. And that he doesn’t follow instructions. But then all my parent friends say their kids don’t follow instructions!

Thank you. I like the bubble analogy will try that. We have had similar advice on the fine motor tips.

His teacher has said a few times she’s not a medical professional but she also mentioned dyspraxia. She must be in her 50s and is clearly very experienced. I really like her, fwiw. She’s been great with our boy.

They said repeat the SENCO ax and see what they recommend. He’s covered on my AXA plan so if can point us in the right direction hopefully we can get him seen quickly

I have a DC with dyspraxia

There is a lot you can do at home to work on the fine motor skills and spatial awareness. Talk to the teacher and see what suggestions she has. These can be improved (relatively) easily.

Thank you. We both came away feeling a bit worried and concerned. They didn’t say ADHD but I have wondered

Yes agree with much of this.

I asked them if they think he should repeat reception. They said the school doesn’t generally do that. And that it would have to have been arranged months ago… which is a bit frustrating but then from his perspective having to repeat a year while he sees his peers move up to Y1 would be fairy shit

It’s pretty unfair of them. They’re basically flagging he’s struggling and going to fail the assessment you mention, but not giving any real practical solutions. I wonder if worth pushing on the repeating of the year? Year 1 can be a real jump, even for kids who aren’t struggling, the expectation suddenly to sit still and partake in formal learning is huge and suddenly you see a lot of kids start to spiral. It doesn’t seem right forcing him to be in that situation when it’s only going to knock his confidence further. Can he read at this point? I’d be worried making him go into year 1 if he is struggling with the basics at this point as how will he keep up as stuff starts to move on at pace. The expectation is they can read and write sentences by now (I have been stressing about this too!) I would be really pushing them to help you with some practical suggestions of next steps to support him and you. It makes me so cross kids are forced to start school so little and not enough is done to correct the disadvantage of being summer born. I’m not suggesting it’s purely him being little for his year, they may be right that it’s adhd too, but it doesn’t help with determining that, and ideally he’d have had more time to prepare for the pressures of formal learning by the sounds of it. There’s no way my son would have been fluently reading and writing sentences at 4.

A SENCO won't be qualified to formally diagnose anything although maybe highly experienced, school may have their own informal checklists to get support in place and the fact they are flagging it to you now is worth it's weight in gold as you can work alongside them opposed to battling against them.

You need an appointment with an educational psychologist who will be able to diagnose, going via school will take a while (4+ years potentially) due to general back log. Going privately he could be diagnosed over the summer or early into the new school year.

It's worth mentioning the hand flapping etc and other autism flags as it is common to be comorbid with other conditions. Write down anything unusual you can think of since he was born.

It could all be the sign of a neurotypical four year old (and the areas he is less developed are likely to stand out more at this age since he is so young compared to others in the class). Equally, it could be a sign of neurotypical behaviour and I suspect that’s what your school believe given they have involved the Senco.

The Senco isn’t qualified to make any diagnosis and they will need to refer for an asseaament. If it’s ADHD that you are suspecting, so consider that many NHS GPs won’t prescribe anything following a private diagnosis.

I can imagine it was quite a shock to hear all of that.
Did you have concerns of your own prior to the school raising their concerns?
The only way you will know for sure is to arrange an assessment either through your gp or privately if funds allow but from what you have said it could be dyspraxia and possibly adhd.
In the meantime then have a look at fine motor exercises, there are loads that can be done at home such as playing with play doh, threading activities, using tweezers to pick things up etc.

Have the school put anything in place yet to help him? Fine motor group, figit toys etc?

If he was slow to speak I'd do this simple speech and language progress checker. You'll need to do the 4.5 one if he's not yet 5.

Our DD was slow to speak and she now has sone aspects of her language missing although you'd probably fond it hard to spot.

I agree with getting his eyes and hearing tested although an eyesight test should be easier and quicker to arrange.

You can ask your HV to refer him for a hearing test. I'd also fill in the 5 yesr Ages & Stages and the 5 year Social & Emotional Ages & Stages and for a meeting with your HV. Tell her your concerns and ask her to mark both of them as seeing the results together should give her a clearer picture of what's going on.

I'd also ask for an Occupational Therapy assessment.

Thanks so much for the responses. Much food for thought here. And no false assurances - or scaremongering. That is much appreciated.

I’ve requested the repeat SENCO ax - she hasn’t called me back so will chase that tomorrow… and I’ve booked a GP appointment with my work health insurance provider. We put my son on it just in case - so I’m hoping that has paid off and it might cover a child / educational psychologist ax

Let us know how you get on with the SENCO tomorrow

Not much to report but had a nice chat with the SENCO last week who was lovely and very reassuring. She didn’t do a formal ax earlier in the year - she just spent time with him in class and observed him. I think if she’d had concerns then next steps would have likely been more formal ax. She told me repeatedly what a lovely boy he is - always good to hear that :) and then banged on about summer born boys particularly being at a disadvantage. Plus DS is left handed which I don’t think helps on the writing front. He often writes letters - and sometimes words backwards. Anyway - she strongly felt that there is no cause for concern, but she said she would spend time with him again this week in class. They’re running a program at the mo around expression and speech and she said she would add him to that if she felt he would benefit. The teachers hadn’t put his name forward. She also said she felt the teachers had their own agenda with government targets and so on. And she said your boy is very much like my eldest - he wants to be outside climbing trees and running free. Not sat on a carpet learning phonics. I am inclined to agree… but sadly sat in a classroom is the name of the game and I don’t want him to be told off all the time, to eventually hate it, or have low self esteem as a result. She said it would be really important to make his Y1 teacher aware of all this and get them on side basically.

Please excuse my rambling blah but helps getting this down!

All these things are classic signs of adhd

I wouldn't necessarily be rushing for private medical appointments just yet. My son was diagnosed autistic at a young age and the GP wasnt involved at all.

A lot of the diagnostic process is based on evidence from parents, school etc. It sounds like school are already gathering this which is good. It might be useful to think about any adaptations you make at home and start making some notes (for us this took some real consideration as it was just our normal).

I would see what the referral pathway is in your area - here it's a 2 year wait on the neurodevelopmental pathway, so I would get a referral in ASAP (school can probably do this) as nothing will happen quickly. It is possible to go down the private route, but do your research. Not all private diagnoses are accepted by NHS/local authority etc. Also, and I cannot say this bit loudly enough SUPPORT IS BASED ON NEED, NOT A DIAGNOSIS

You may want to discuss things like adjustments and EHCPs with the SENCO - again, the latter is not a quick process if that's what he needs.

In most areas you can self refer to NHS OT. They will be able to observe and make suggestions for adaptations that will help at school (and home if necessary). They will write a report which also adds to the evidence being gathered. Could go private but they're like gold dust.

Educational Psychologist - they CANNOT diagnose. But as above, will observe, make recommendations, give insight etc and produce a report. Again could go private. Pricy but a thorough assessment can be valuable.

DS2 is in Reception and is not 5 until almost the end of next month. I was really worried about him starting school because he is the youngest of our 3 DC, the 'baby' and was really still very young even for his age. We didn't feel like we babied him but he seemed to be in that role. We thought about holding him back but he went. He has coped much better than we thought he might but he does all the things your DS does, at home as well as at school, but I can see he is improving.
I think it is true that summer born boys often just take longer, and he suffers a bit from being the youngest. I've noticed that if he plays with DS1 (who is 9 and very patient with him) he is often much better at concentrating and listening than if he plays with his little friends. DH is incredibly patient with him too and he is much calmer with DH. I think he'll be fine.