4 year old - would these things concern you?

[anicecuppateaa]

Help please. DS has just turned 4. Since he was much younger I’ve suspected he might have asd.

Here’s a list of things that seem unusual - does this seem like in the range of ‘normal’ behaviour or should I be trying to discuss with someone (HV?)?

• Didn’t talk until 18 months (I took him to the GP at the time)
• likes order. DH brushed it off at the time and said he used do line up his cars in orders (DH is neurotypical). A current example is meltdowns if I put paint in the paint tray in the wrong order (the order of the rainbow is the only order allowed…)
• Cannot cope with not coming first (at games, getting up the stairs for bedtime etc)
• highly intelligent. Could recognise and name alphabet and numbers 1-20 by 2. He now knows all times tables up to 10 x table, does addition and subtraction games with me, can read lots of words because he’s learnt the phonics.
• Struggles socially but REALLY wants to join in. Can be very reserved until he feels comfortable but then seems to be normal socially.
• Meltdowns. He seems very frustrated recently and makes a gross grr noise rather than communicating
• Biting things. This used to be a problem and stopped for a long time. He’s back to putting everything in his mouth - soft toys, any toys, clothes etc. I find I am forever saying ‘we put food, drink and toothpaste’ in our mouths. Tonight he burst his new squishy monster birthday present by mindlessly biting it. I can’t tell if he is mindlessly doing this or seeking sensory input.

He is due to start school in Sept. Do I tell the school of my concerns, or are these things typical behaviours?

So as not to drip feed, he has a diagnosed (hopefully temporary) hearing loss. He is also a twin and his twin displays none of these behaviours.

Lots of children aren't talking at 18 months and are crap at losing. If he's got hearing issues that is likely to be a big part of his frustration and meltdowns. Nothing there leaps out at me but I'm not an expert.

Thank you. Maybe I’m overthinking it. I do hear from lots of friends about issues between other twins/ siblings and losing!

I think you have some reasonable points there.

They’re not all bad though - knowing that levels of maths for a 4 year old he sounds extremely gifted!

Not massively sounding like asd. The hearing loss can explain a lot of those difficulties. Primary effect would be on language development and then secondary effects on behaviour and social interactions. The rigidity with order and winning sounds like it could a normal phase

Your son sounds extremely intelligent if he knows all times tables and can read/ do phonics already!

coupled with the hearing loss I’d say he has a lot of great thoughts in his mind he perhaps cannot get out and so is frustrated.

the things on your list could be Asd traits but equally most kids I know can be a bit this way out over certain things (like the paint or in my case cutting up a crumpet when he didn’t want to have it cut and demanding I put it back together!😒)

Apart from the biting these are all things that are both fairly typical, but sometimes indicative of a problem. For now I'd just keep an eye on things and see how school goes. Although, of course no harm in seeking some advice from the HV, even if it's just strategies to manage the behaviour.

How four is he? Just four? Or nearly five?

He sounds very, very similar to my DC1 who has been diagnosed with ASD at 8. Equally, he might just be quirky and these things might not indicate anything at all. Have you spoken to your health visitor about him?

For the chewing, you can buy chewy toys if it’s a sensory thing.

I would keep an eye on it and consider discussing with the SENCO once he’s at school. But don’t be surprised if you get fobbed off. My experience was that people were very keen to dismiss my DC’s quirks as being not unusual for a child of that age - and objectively speaking, they were right. It took until he was much older for professionals to be willing to acknowledge these quirks were no longer typical in a child that age and to look at the whole picture.

Nothing leaps out at me either.

My daughter is socially the same - very reserved at first. I always make sure I take her to playgroups/parties/nursery before most of the children arrive, as she gets overwhelmed easily. She also doesn't like children being loud, etc. but very social in the same time.
Started to talk later, loves order and intelligent- could count until 20 by age of 2 in two languages and sing the whole abc and recognise letters.

I never thought anything would be wrong. It's just her personality. She is a thinker, and she only jumps into things when she feels confident - walking, talking, all happened late because of that.

My son has an ASD diagnosis and some of these behaviours are very similar to his. I think it’s always worth mentioning these things to the school, so they are aware and can bear it in mind.

I had some family members say things like ‘he’s just a normal boy’ and they were trying to be kind but it wasn’t helpful really - I felt like I was overreacting when actually it was me dealing with the meltdowns and him also suffering as I didn’t yet know techniques to help him.

Thanks everyone. @NuffSaidSam just four. His birthday was last week.

@Temporaryname158 none of it came from me, that’s for sure! DH is also very into numbers so maybe he gets it from him….

@Hugmorecats thank you. I will also ask pre school but expect to be told they have no concerns. Where did you learn about coping strategies/ the best ways to support your ds? As much as I want this to be nothing, if it is something I just want to give him the support he needs.

This could be my nine year old Grandson.
Everything you have pointed out except the not talking until 18 months.. my Grandson was talking earlier.
He was diagnosed ASD at just over two years.. but his older cousins ( 3 boys ) were diagnosed long before him... they are now teenagers.

@anicecuppateaa I’ve done some free courses run by council social workers (evening webinars) and the school senco does occasional drop in sessions, also I’ve read some books recommended by the national autistic society :)

It’s difficult to say. I could identify the letters of the alphabet at 18m and read by age 3. It’s called hyperlexia and I have autism.

My DS has ASD and was similar at that age.. especially socially (and order, lining up cars etc).
I wish we had got him diagnosed earlier as we understand him much better once he got the diagnosis (at 17!). He is fabulous, and has lots of friends and interests. Life can be tougher for him but in some ways it's richer as he gets so into things.

For all those saying this is entirely typical, could your four year olds really do all their times tables up to 10??

The poor language skills thing isn't a huge flag op and is typical in twins especially, and the inability to accept not winning 🙄 but his maths are way beyond. That alone I think warrants you being mindful. Is he in nursery linked to the school he'll attend?

@SleepingStandingUp no the pre school isn’t linked to the school, although they are within walking distance. I think the school speak to the pre school ahead of them starting though.

thanks for all the replies. I am worried about what the future holds for him if I am honest. Maybe it’s fear of the unknown/ feeling in limbo.

For those that had dc with these traits and later an asd diagnosis, how does it affect day to day life now?

The lining things up could just be him processing one of the schemas of child development. https://www.pacey.org.uk/working-in-childcare/spotlight-on/schemas/

The numbers and reading, maybe not tables but if they have an interest its nothing crazy - my son could relate facts about dinosaurs at that age a friends son would name brand and type of car on a car journey. Neither are ASD it could just be a phase.

I would imagine the hearing is causing frustration.

As for the not losing - I have a 9 and 7 year old - this is my life every single day!

Yeah it does sound suspect but don't panic over it, as children can get support even before or without a diagnosis.
GP we found was not able to help unless it's a really obvious case, they said he seems ok (at 3) but he started at the school nursery at 4 and the teacher recommended they refer him when he was 4.5 due to subtle things they noticed.
The waiting list in our area is 18 months so he will be in year 1 by the time he's seen, but the teacher said they all talk to each other in the school and he's not at the level he needs teaching assistant all the time.
Take care.

I have 2 boys, one was starting to read himself at 3 and comfortably could read at 4. I never did anything with him outside of reading to him. He's now 7 and slightly ahead/top end of normal in maths and wouldn't know all his times tables yet, yours is very advanced there. He is still a very good reader but even though he was ahead in early years I wouldn't say he is particularly now.

Youngest is similar to yours re shyness, which is quite bizarre having had an extroverted child. He needs to know someone quite well before interacting, though at 4y 4m I can see signs of that improving (also now in speech and language therapy which is improving his confidence). He can write his name and loves writing but no recognition of phonics yet.

Both have their quirks and some aspects of your DS' behaviour but I think that the combination would be worth a chat with his HV. Has he had his 4 year rv yet? Sounds like a very clever little boy who will absolutely thrive with the right support at school.

I’ll try to answer your question about how it affects day to day life (have some insomnia tonight!)

Mostly things are good as long as I stick to a routine he knows and likes. Anything out of the ordinary can throw him (a birthday party, hospital appointment etc) and result in an unusually big meltdown where he might throw things and try to hit me. I’ve been advised by the school senco to encourage him to hit soft things like cushions when this happens. Also to give him time and space to calm down after a meltdown.

This might make it sound like he is an angry child but honestly most of the time he’s very happy, it’s just he gets frustrated easily and upset by unexpected things. He loves to stay at home and it can be hard to persuade him to leave the house.

I’m jealous of your son’s academic abilities as mine really struggles with all areas of school. However I do think this means he gets more support from the school. Whereas I always did well in my school work but was hugely struggling socially, but never received any support for that as I was doing so well in hitting academic targets (suspect I am autistic but was never assessed as a child)

Nowadays luckily there is more understanding and my son’s school is even running a special class for children with Sen needs to help them understand emotions and social cues.

We're just going through similar queries with our daughter 2y8mo. I think there is enough there to raise the question and warrant assessment if you either have the energy to pursue the NHS route (lengthy) or the financial resource to go private (£2-2.5k). I've read several books about 'high functioning' autism (not a used term now but helpful to differentiate a bit from the more typical presentations). The behaviours you've described are frequently referenced (our daughter exhibits lots of the same and concerns have been flagged by nursery). My view is an assessment will either help us understand and support her better, or show there is nothing underlying driving these behaviours and again give us more confidence in how we support her. I can't see any downsides to be honest.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the responses. @Hugmorecats he is a little genius! I’m concerned he will have problems at school because he is bored in reception.