Someone remind me this is just a very very long, feels like forever, when will it end.... phase?

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Idk if it's the weather or the moon or just me but I just don't have the energy for threenagers at the moment. I can't even say 'today' as it's been going on a while. The constant having to explain things, negotiate the plain obvious, answer why even when you've just explained 3x, the total lack of give from the other side just take take take.

I've just had two days off, with either my own or adult company hoping it would reset my barometer for it but if anything it's made me worse. She's the most strong-willed and opinionated member of the household by a mile and we're all just tired of it. Sick of being told 'STOP TALKING TO ME', point blank the daily school run battle where she refuses to put on a jumper or coat then crying because she's cold, being completely fixated on having things in a particular way and a particular colour with no negotiation. I'm trying not to give into it as she's not an only child and really needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around her but it's so SO hard to go up against her. I've been doing workarounds (like taking the jumper along in readiness for her to change her mind), or just letting her deal with the natural consequences (on the 3 minute school run) but nothing seems to make it improve for the next day. Or the changes are so infinitesimal I'm just not noticing them.

The mood is not being helped by the fact that she's refusing naps, refusing to sleep at bedtime (sometimes she's still coming out of her room at 9pm) and then waking up early so she's a total emotional mess as she's knackered, but won't give in to it. She won't eat anything except bagels with cream cheese, strawberries and babybels. She won't eat a meal and then heads straight to the snack drawer. I never agree to having a snack when she's just refused what's on the table, yet she does it again and again and again...3x a day, 7 days a week. It's been months and months and months.

Been trying to find the funny side where possible, and just let it wash over me. Yesterday she had a fit because she didn't like the singing...but it was her singing. That was pretty funny to be fair. But every day I have a little bit less to give.

Nothings changed in the routine, there's no new baby shaking things up, it's just how she is. I swear it wasn't this bad with DS! I'm just so bored and tired of it! I don't even like her that much right now, she's annoying!

(the two days off are part of the routine, she goes to childcare and I usually work. But I took the two days and just did things I wanted to do trying to fill my own cup. Just seems to have made me more resentful and even less motivated, which is the total opposite of what I was hoping!)

I completely and totally understand this. It felt a lot like this at times with DS.

Have you ever considered any possible ND? I know, it's annoying when people come on here and immediately suggest ND, but some of what you're saying resonates so much with me with DS. As it turns out, he also has inattentive ADHD but at this age, a huge part of his issues were linked to his Sensory Processing Disorder. He simply didn't have the language to express why he was uncomfortable, or the tools to manage it for himself, so he was just annoying as shit a lot of the time. Over time, we realised things we could do to help him and then even more, as he's got older, he has so much more control PLUS the ability to discuss with us what options might be available so while he still has SPD, it's 10mn times easier to manage.

Whether or not she does have something like this, I'd agree - don't sweat the small stuff. To a large extent, let her wear what she likes. If you notice a theme in what she wears in terms of colour/style/texture, stick with that.

Re sleeping - again, I hear you. I have less advice as we didn't really get this right ourselves and in retrospect that's the one thing I really wish we'd got the ADHD diagnosis sooner as maybe we could have done more, but one thing I would suggest is if she's not napping, try an earlier bed time. Even now at 13, if DS goes to bed at a decent time he sleeps better, otherwise he's up until 2 am.

My message was a bit disjointed. Sorry.

Re things like jumper or coat - it took us a long time to find a coat DS would wear - no jumper, ever. He liked lightweight puffa style that still allowed lots of freedom of movement. Ditto, our school run life was transformed when we swapped to seamless bamboo socks - suddenly putting on shoes and socks just wasn't that big a deal. Also, both of mine, in different ways, just needed to be left alone sometimes. DD, aged about 3, used to take herself upstairs with a book or her ipad after her sports group saying, "I just need to chillax" and would be back 20 minutes later having had her rest and now raring to go!

Food is harder. We haven't had a problem with food with DS but I know lots of people in similar situations. Snacks definitely need to be limited and not provided and I know a few families who found themselves in a sort of rut of 3 meals on rotation for their children as a way to at least guarantee some nutrition.

At the risk of appearing like I'm diagnosing someone's child - she sounds like my children. Like, exactly like my children. They both have ADHD and possible ASD. I would list the bullet points that resonate with me but honestly, the entire post sounds exactly like my kids. Mine will scream "STOP TALKING TO ME!" when they are overwhelmed and overstimulated and they need a minute to get themselves together, process what they've heard and then they're ready to listen. Natural consequences are good, as is taking the jumper with you knowing she's going to ask for it - little children, ND or not, are very bad at predicting how they're going to feel in 5 minutes let alone 20 minutes when they've gone outside and suddenly they're cold.

Mine are 8 now and yes it gets easier but i do get so, so, so tired of having to talk and explain endlessly about everything, only for them to have a meltdown anyway half the time. The meltdowns are something else - as i also have adhd i get overwhelmed quickly and i find that it's very, very difficult to cope with when they blow up out of apparently nowhere. Recognising the triggers help - i have to make sure they have food regularly because if they get hungry, they get very very very hangry. Things are improving but as you say - in such tiny tiny increments that we don't even notice.

Pick your battles - if she only eats certain foods, it may be because she has sensory issues with other foods (Nd or not) so is it the end of the world if most of her diet is safe food which sounds pretty healthy choices anyway to be honest? You can introduce new food slowly to expand her palate but the more mealtimes become a battle the less likely it is that she will see new food as a positive thing to try.

You may find once she starts school and sees all the other children eating other food she may try it in a different environment.

You're right not to let her get away with everything - i was getting to the point i couldn't deal with another meltdown so they were getting away with being really quite rude to me and dh - I've cracked right down on that. They're allowed to be angry but they're not allowed to be insulting or aggressive.

A couple more thoughts - She may have grown out of naps. Mine dropped their naps by 2.5 (i cried a lot when they stopped napping 😆 that was my time to myself to try and refill my cup) your time to yourself is so important. Get as much of it as you can to do the things that will replenish you. Don't do chores, do something that makes you feel good.

A very strict bedtime routine helped us to get bedtime sorted. We had a chart on the wall with what times things needed to be done and accompanying pictures to show a picture of a barn, toothbrush, book, bed i think it was, so they knew what order things would happen in. That was really important and still is.

Then we stuck to it as best we could. It went in phases. Sometimes they would go to sleep perfectly. Some days we would end up in their room singing to them until they eventually went to sleep but they just felt they needed someone with them. It's the path of least resistance, although lots of people will tell you you're making a rod for your own back - respond to the child in front of you, not society's idea of what a child and you should do.

Eventually we hit on the idea of doing story and a couple of songs, then id say "im popping to the bathroom, I'll be back in 2 minutes, stay there" and then id time it so i would be back in the room before they'd got back out of bed. Then they'd get another song before i left them for the night. (Me and dh took turns - one night each - so we both got a break)

That seemed to help them to relax and understand we hadn't left them, i think they were worried about feeling alone at night. I used to be like that too as a child. The time i left the room for started off being 2 minutes, then we extended it to 5, 10, 15 minutes - but they learnt to stay in bed. Usually by the time we got to 10 minutes they'd fallen asleep.

If you have a dh or dp, you need to recognise which of you is better equipped at that moment to deal with dd - if you're already frustrated with her, step away and let someone else take over. If it's just you, then feel free to step out of the room for a minute to get yourself together. It is bloody hard, but my kids never respond well when i shout at them (which is more often than id like - I'm not a saint).

Last thing - i had to relearn everything i thought i knew about being a parent from my own upbringing. Ie, your child is being naughty and needs to be told off/something taken away/punished. I had to learn to react with compassion and empathy when everything i had learnt about parenting said i should do the opposite. Sometimes your child needs a hug, when everyone around you would tell you they need punishment. You go out, your child throws a tantrum the public sees a naughty defiant child. You see a little girl who is struggling to cope with something and needs your help to make sense of it.

Whether she is ND or not, that's still true.

Thanks so much for the replies. Honestly it had not occurred to me to consider she might be ND. Her childminder is very experienced in that area and hasn't ever said anything to suggest we might want to consider it. But, these responses have given me food for thought.

@GingerIsBest With things like refusing to wear a jumper, or coat, or shoes...it totally could be a sensory thing. I will try and go down that line tomorrow and see if we have more luck. We have everything set up so she chooses her own clothes, can select her own coat, has access to her own shoes...so I guess if there was an option she prefers she could totally resolve that for herself. But there's usually a moment where she turns her back to me, arms folded with a 'hmph' and refuses to do it. If I enter play mode then she's happily compliant, but some days dontcha just run out of energy and wish they could just do the thing without it needing to sound like an episode of Bluey? My creative energies are so low, I just want her to put on the sock (or whatever it is in that moment) without me having to pretend there's a sock monster who'll eat your foot, or do some reverse psychology about not putting socks on, or try and put the sock on her hand or my own foot...socks and shoes are a daily thing, just put on the friggin sock!!! Arghh!!! I'm so glad it was warmer today, she's been bare foot pretty much all day. One less battle!

Also I love that your kid knows the word 'chillax', I am clearly not making the most of the awesome vocabulary opportunities here!!

@Adhdmumofadhdtwins thanks for your message! Your tone was so kind and supportive, made me a bit emotional. As I said to the PP I'm going to definitely bear these things in mind more. There's so much support for SEN where I am, I know that the pre-school she's starting at soon and the school DS is at are truly so fab for it, so have lots of resources I could draw on if needed.

I have also totally relearned everything I thought I would be as a parent. Mostly it's actually been a very healing and positive journey for me and my own inner child too. I hope it has for you too. I love that our household is kind and empathetic, and my oldest is so good at sharing his feelings and caring for others. Made every effort worth it. But boy am I having to dig deeper with #2, and the reserves are low!!

I'm fine with her having dropped the nap, but honestly I have no idea how she's functioning on so little sleep. She's often awake till 9ish, is awake at least once overnight, up for the day at 6, and doesn't seem to sleep during the day. I could just about cope with it if she then wasn't an emotional trainwreck, and telling me she's tired at 10am 😅 So because she's had so little overnight sleep I offer the chance for a nap but it's a strong no! By about 4.30/5pm she's completely unable to control her impulses or temper, refuses to eat etc...But then by bedtime she's got a second wind and isn't interested in bed at all. Today we have been outside ALL DAY, genuinely we've had at least 8 hours of fresh air and daylight. I've done everything I can think of to exhaust her. Yet she is showing no signs of being tired. Usually spends hours coming out needing the loo, or a drink, or something to eat. The first trip to the loo I allow (even when it's part of the bedtime routine, as she tends to still need it), and she goes to bed with a drink of water, but we make it very clear that the kitchen closes 30 minutes before bedtime and that's a hard rule.

We have charts for morning and bedtime routine, I do the 'I'm popping downstairs to do x' thing, and make the gaps progressively longer. She just consistently ups her stamina for how long she'll wait. To be fair mostly when she's awake in the evening she is actually in her room, and in her bed, she's just not asleep. She will fall asleep in around an hour if I lie down with her, after I say that I'm getting frustrated by the antics and she needs to settle down now. But I'm running solo at the moment, and I'm just so drained. My mind is downstairs on the to do list which needs doing before I can rest, otherwise I'll have to do it with her in tow tomorrow and it'll be traumatic. So I'm resentful of needing to be in there and not my best parenting self, which isn't a nice moment for either of us. Also more recently she's sleeping so lightly that when I try to leave the bed she wakes and the whole process restarts. So I just don't want to do it any more. When DH is around I try to tag out, but she sends him out of the room. I'm 100% the preferred parent, even when I've reached ranty shouty mum stage!

To end on a positive though, we actually had a really good 3-4 hours in the middle of today, which was so so welcome. The sun was out too, and bumped into some other parents for some hearty conversation surrounded by lovely spring greenery. Filled the cup enough to get me through this evening, and hopefully the next few hours too!

DS has never shown signs of being tired in his life. We can see signs of over tiredness and what we used to refer to as "cumulative" tiredness - which was when he had night after night of too little sleep and seemed fine... until he wasn't. But traditional signs of being tired? No. He'd go from fine, to a bit more energetic (which was probably ACTUALLY tiredness, we just didn't recognise it becuase it's not typical).

In your case, I'd seriously consider moving bedtime earlier and/or massively lowering expectations for the last few hours of the day. If we'd been out like that all day, I'd have happily parked either of my two in front of the TV at that point, given them dinner, encouraged an early bath and into bed. If I could encourage them to then go to sleep, brilliant, but even if not, they were chilling and being quiet. DD would have most likely fallen asleep with no prompting. DS was a bit more hit and miss. And in fact, it's a running joke that even as a baby, he could lie in a room, in the dark, in silence... and still NOT SLEEP for hours.

As for DD's vocabularly. For reasons I don't understand both of my children have unusually good vocabularies and I wish I did know why - all the experts say it's to do with reading and I can assure you that in DS' case in particular, this cannot be true!

I do hear you re the clothes thing. We literally just let DS wear the same 3 or four things on rotation. In his case, it was lightweight cotton trousers - sun/rain/snow were irrelevant - and cotton long sleeved t-shirts from H&M. I was that woman going round the toddler animal farm while it was snowing with a child wearing almost nothing. I got a lot of looks. But actually, it was the snow that made us stop fighting him - DH took him to our local favourite farm place and it was snowing and tried to force him to wear his jumper. He screamed, cried, tantrummed. Eventually DH got it on him and off they went. An hour later, DS was still crying while trailing along behind DH miserably. He wasn't even having a meltdown - just semi-quietly non stop sobbing while pulling at his clothes. We took that as a sign.

Oh, just to add, DS is 13. I just bought him his first ever pair of jeans. He asked for them, they are super soft and oversized (thank god for fashion) and I am STILL not convinced he will wear them. Luckily they were cheap. Ditto, he hasn't owned a jmper since the christmas jumper I bought him in year 4. He HAS had a couple of hoodies - soft cotton, usually zip ups and this year we spent a fortune on a Nike "coat" (it's not actually a coat. It's a zip up hoodie with water resistant shoulders and hood....). It's to big for him as I knew he'd get limited use out of it so at least this way it will last at least two years....

Oh wow!!! Gosh even in the snow. Yup that's a strong message right there.

The sleep thing IS my daughter. She can be in there not making a peep but be awake. I had luck last week putting her to bed at about half past 5 before she went past it and she slept until 7am. I was rejoicing!!! But haven't managed it since, DS has stuff on after school some nights and DH is away atm so it's full on. Will try and do a super early one again tomorrow, see how we get on.

I genuinely appreciate you sharing your experiences, thank you.

A saying in our house is "sleep begets sleep". Of course, getting DS into bed for that earlier time slot was hard almost impossible, and as soon as he started working out how to tell time it was a complete failure (we actually seriously considered changing all the clocks, including on devices, at one point). So I'm not surprised that the one time you managed the earlier bedtime it went well. I'm also not surprised that it's 100000000 x easier said than done.

Incidentally, apparently this is a fairly common problem with ADHD. They don't have the ability to actually tell that they are tired. DS' inattentive adhd wasn't even brought up as a possible issue until an educational psychologist told us about it in year 6. He wasn't hyperactive so we just had no idea....

Definitely fascinating! Will have it in the back of my mind and do some reading. Thank you. I'm glad someone was able to work it out for you too. 10mx easier to manage sounds great!

We're big fans of 'sleep begets sleep' as it worked so well for DS. He was napping way beyond the norm, and even now if you suggest there's something fun happening later and he would benefit from a nap ahead of a late night he can put himself straight to sleep. But DD....nope!

Didn't even think about how right now they can't read or tell time 😂 life is just going to be more negotiations and complications huh! I have so valued this pre-school time where...at least DS was easily distracted and placated! And DD can usually be placated if I play through the madness, but if I try to fight fire with fire I'm going to lose. She's a powerhorse.

My daughter is not a good sleeper. I cannot comment on most of your post but I just wanted to say there is no tiring my daughter out. She was running yesterday with my dad in the park and he said "she will sleep to night". Nope up until 8.45 when she is a fairly good routine at the moment of going down at 7.45-8. the more she does the more energy she has but then if she doesn't do much in the day she has loads of energy too. There's a sweet spot which can be hard to judge. My dad used to take my little sister out to the fields to play fetch to tire her out as a kid!

In the summers her bedtime can sleep very easily to 11pm which is tough when mine is at 10! Since the clocks have changed we have had to shut the curtains upstairs before she goes up to fake a sunset and we will have to continue it the dark nights come back. Once it is sunnier and brighter in the evenings we will have to do the same downstairs after she gets in from nursery. she's 3 and we started this last summer after really struggling the year before.

She's asleep you guys!!!!! It's only taken an hour and a half...other than that one anomaly night that's a record for 2024! Saying that I do not have the energy for another 8 hours of running her ragged tomorrow 😂

I’ve had really REALLY good results this week with my 2.5 year old DS with stickers. Bloody stickers, who knew the key to getting him to stay in bed was to put a sticker on his PJ top as a reward for “nice lying down” 😅bedtime has gone from a 2 hour rodeo which ended with me actually crying last week (not him, he was having a fine old time) to being done in half an hour. I can’t really believe it. It probably won’t last. But it might be worth a try for you

Nice!! Hopefully she will sleep.well too. And then be less tired tomorrow. Am crossing fingers for you!! I truly do get it!

It does sound very much from your post that she possibly isn't NT

She blooming loved a sticker for potty training. Will give it a go tomorrow!

Also yay for your win :-D

I'm so glad my post helped you to feel better. This is a hard, hard journey some days but you sounds like an amazing mum.

Mostly it's actually been a very healing and positive journey for me and my own inner child too.

Same here. I will always have my children's backs. I had a huge amount of healing to do, and my parenting is not perfect by a long shot, but i know that every minute of every day, i am doing the best i possibly can with the resources i have available. Just... Sometimes the amount of resources i have is much lower on some days! But we will never do less than our best for our dcs 😉

it's brilliant that dd went to bed well tonight - that's down to you. So hats off, you dug in even though when you made this post you sounded at the end of your tether but today you've soldiered on and you've had a good day 👏

And Yes to sticker charts!

I honestly read that thinking she was a teenager and wondered why you wanted her to keep napping! This will pass, don't worry, and soon as she will be the teenager who's doing exactly the same and still not napping.

Have you read the thread on the cutted up pear in classics? I think the little girl in that would be your daughters's soulmate!

Hi, OP, I have been feeling the same since DS2 was 3... Literally sometimes I had very little left to give, not mentioning all what he wanted was to take and take - as you said.

I've cried... goodness knows how many times. Never like that with DS1.

And that was not even with the issues of sleeping and eating. So you have done amazingly honestly. I only just started learning to be more playful thanks to Bluey and it works nearly all the time. But yes, nobody can always have the time/energy/mood to be a playful parent. But you've done all the right things.

Just as others said, the issues with sleep and particularly with food do strike like ND. Childminders may not always spot it - ours didn't with DS1 even though she's a very caring and experienced one. Talk to GP and try to get her referred. The waiting list is long, so it might take a while. Better start early.

This age is challenging though, especially when they are good talkers and have a strong sense of self. Just make sure you instill the right principles no matter how much resistance you get. In the long run, hopefully the strong headedness will be put into the right place by them for a better purpose.

Sometimes, I witness the vulnerable side of DS2 (simple things like when he's nervous in a new environment or he gets scared by one of my harmless plays), it reminded me, after all, how small, vulnerable and fragile he is and how much I want to protect him, even though, he rarely gives me hugs or wants any from me. I try to remind myself, he's still very very young and logic doesn't always work at that age.

It will get better, hold on, OP. But try to look into ND and talk to the GP, just in case.

definitely too old for naps

Fair but on days where she's had less than 8 hours of overnight sleep and is being completely unreasonable as she's tired then the optimistic part of me wants her to sleep and the slowly going insane part of me needs her to!!!!! Continuing to skip the nap doesn't seem to be working so honestly it felt worth a go.

My daughter started dropping her nap around 2.5 but was 3y2m before she actually dropped it. We had 8 months of her needing less naps a week but still needing some naps. At first it was 5 naps a week then 4 then 2 then 1. On nap days we went up to bed 15 minutes later than normal and made the bedtime routine 10-15 minutes longer with an extra story so she went to bed about half an hour later. Trying to keep her to the regular bedtime usually meant she refused and went to bed 2h later than normal!

I’m not sure of her age. But a lot of what you describe is commonly seen in children with autism. Almost textbook in fact. Clothing, food, not wanting the singing, sleep problems, and not wanting you to talk, everything being done in a predictable way. I’d have a Google and see if you come to any conclusions about this too, perhaps have a chat with a GP or health visitor.