Do you do things/activities as a family all together?

[staryeyed]

If so what do you do and how old are your children?

It is the law that children are educated. If, in a family, children are educated at school (rather than home-educated) it is the law that they attend, and that they abide by the rules of the school.

Bed-time is a negotiable dependent on the sleep needs of the child, the waking time of the family and other family variables.

Children ought always to be involved in reaching a decision as to what their bedtime should be.

My 3.4 year old quite often now tells us when she's tired and wants to go to bed, if that's earlier than usual. She's even been known (once or twice) to disappear off to bed without telling us. My stepsons know what time they need to go to bed if they are to feel good the next day.

That's the difference. HTH.

ScienceTeacher - home/non-home is not the dividing line between negotiable and non-negotiable. Even at home we are all subject to external constraints that are non-negotiable - eg not making a disturbance for the neighbours.

As I have said, it is hard task in life determining that where we have decision-making power and that where we don't.

Negotiables for children are generally those things that are within the decision-making remit of the family and that concern the child.

But anna if your child says she doesn't want to go to school (which you've told us she has) then why on earth are you not home educating her? And if she doesn't want to be educated on that particular day surely she should be allowed to spend her day in the nude with welly boots on drawing on the walls? After all you have a very sophisticated daughter who is perfectly capable of making rational decisions for herself and it is your job to accommodate these. Or so you would have us believe.

And why should a 3 year old child who has a parent who doesn't believe in 'laying down the law' respect the law of the land??

Having read a lot of the threads here I cant help but wonder how people who know Anna's children view them as this would give a more balanced view of how good her parenting skills are ......
I think I read that she said that children learn and adopt behaviour styles from their parents which make me wonder about what her children are learning about interacting with others .

fivecandles, ScienceTeacher - "... and you'll smell like a dog" - I would not say that to a child, or anyone else, whether about teeth cleaning or anything else... it's demeaning.

The fundamental issue here is Anna's MO of arguing from the particular (= her experience) to the general.

Her 3.4 year old tells Anna when she's tired & wants to go to bed.
Anna has involved her 3.4 year old in bedtime negotiations.
Ergo her 3.4 year old's ability to suss out her own tiredness derives directly from her involvement in bedtime negotiations.

Well, whoop de doo.

I have a 7.5 year old who has been able to tell me when she'd like to go to bed early since (as we're being competitive here) she was 15 months.

I have a nearly 9 year old who can't tell whether he's tired or not until he flops over snoring.

Neither have ever, to my knowledge, been involved in bedtime consensus-reaching.

Yes Spring and quite interested in hearing from the child who at aged 3 was taken to watch a film which hinges on a child rape and regularly plied with foie gras (created by artifically distending the livers of geese) but then not told that she should jolly well put some clothes on for 6 months and allowed to 'negotiate' her bedtimes.

When you hear from the grown up children of parents who are uber liberal they are often mortified by their parents. And, as I've said before, children always respect the teachers most who have absolute authority, are firm but fair and know how to challenge teir students. So it is with children and their parents.

fivecandles - School is non-negotiable. So there is no issue there (and most mornings she loves it anyway). You might not want to do it on occasion, but neither parent nor child have any decision-making power over school (home ed is no different if you choose that route - you still have to do it).

The issue is on outings, bed times, choice of clothing etc. You have to bring your child to an understanding of what is a wise choice to make.

Think of learning to use the loo. In the past, mothers were advised to stick their children on a potty at a very early age and it was called "training". These days parents are advised to wait until their children want to use the potty or loo - ie the child decides when he/she is ready.

anna do they not have a sense of humour in your world? Is that why it's ok for your child to watch images of warfare, death and sex but not for someone else to tell her child (jokingly as it happens but I would be quite happy to say it seriously) that they would smell like a dog if they didn't brush their teeth? Actually it's not demeaning either. My kids love dogs. They do smell like them though if they don't brush their teeth (it's kind of a healthy, foody smell but not desperately pleasant FYI).

Oh for heaven's sake Anna! "And you'll smell like a dog" - it's funny! It's a joke! Don't they have those where you come from?

Well I thought it was funny SixSpot! So did dd actually.

I really, really, really don't find that funny as a way of getting a child to brush his/her teeth.

Can't you use a carrot, not a (demeaning) stick?

So, as I suspected, Anna, it's ok for the state, the school and your dd's poor, poor teachers to get your daughter to learn about rules and authority while you wait for 6 months until she decides for herself that it might be a good idea to wear clothes. What fun!

Are jokes not allowed in your house either then anna. Probably just not sophisticated enough. God, your kid is just going to be so much fun in the playground isn't she? Or do you think all her friends will be so dying to get hold of her foie gras sandwiches and talk to her about Atonement that they just won't have time for jokes?!

And, your sense of humour bypass aside, you've still not found anything that I've said which could possibly imply that I'm anything other than a calm, patient and respectful parent.

And yet you have obviously assumed that I'm none of these things.

Would you like a copy of my daughter's report? It really is most complimentary about her behaviour, acceptance of authority and respect for others .

You are very confused between the role of parent and that of a teacher. They really are not the same .

The 'smell like a dog' one would appeal to my sons' sense of humour and might be one of the best methods of all to get them to brush their teeth.

Anna - you say some very brutal things on here, often accompanied by a . You are extremely concerned about how you speak to your children yet seemingly unaware of how you come across on here, unless your sole reason for using MN is to educate your 'inferiors'.

Seeker - I would happily leave my children in your care.

fivecandles - do you think that you have displayed calm and patience on this thread?

Anna
just to explain ( see I am a calm and patient parent)

The issue of SN kids is directly related to your decision to demonise anyone who does not endlessly 'concensus based' parent.
It is directly linked to your use of the word brutalise to describe anyone who simply has to tell their child yes and no.
My sons needs require me to be clear and specific. Negotiation would confuse and distress him.

My point being that when you use a fantasticly disproportionate word like 'brutalise'you need to be very very sure that you are correct.
You are not correct and you should have the grace to withdraw it. But I doubt that you will.

My impression of your inability to listen to anyone else's pov is that your very sensible DD probably long since gave up argueing the toss with mum because she has the persistence of a bulldog and the wit of a gnat.

I would only finally add that to burden children endlessly with decision making is not a gift. No indeedy. Kids want to know that they are cared for and nurtured by someone bigger and wiser than they who will love them and protct them and knows the answers to all lifes little questions. Endless negotiation must be awfully tiring. But then to be honest trying to discuss with you is also pretty knackering. Your DD must have patience aplenty

There's no confusion in my mind about the job of a parent and a teacher. What I'm trying to point out is that teachers are often left to pick up the pieces when parents have not done their job.

I am fascinated by Anna's style of parenting... but when I say fascinated, that doesn't mean I wish I had done it! I am Mum to teens and feel that if I hadn't laid down the law when they were little, I would not now have the beautiful but totally argumentative,feisty and bolshy teens I have now! They would be worse than that!

Giving them such a freedom of choice will NOT work when they are 19 and 17... they will walk all over you! There are rules in this house and they have to be adhered to, whether they like it or not, they may think it unfair but they are my rules. And by God, can they argue... they argue for Britain for hours but the rules stand.

fivecandles has definitely displayed much calm and patience on this thread

Oh Anna, do give over. I think fivecandles has been remarkably calm and patient with you, actually. I'd have been much much ruder myself .

As have many other posters