Can you talk me through behaviour management for an almost five year old?

[numberthirtytwowindsorgardens]

Because DS is completely out of control and I don't know what to do about it.

His behaviour has been gradually deteriorating - he used to be an angel - and since January has gone into a sharp decline. He now has the most OTT reaction to being told no - he will scream, hit at his worst, at his best, talk back, say 'no you won't' if I explain what will happen, destroy things.

I've always done straightforward consequences - hit me with something, that something goes away until he can prove to me he can behave - but I am at an absolute loss as to what to do now. If he does something bad - today, for example, having thrown the mother of all tantrums at leaving a playdate, he refused to get out of the car, and scrambled around all the seats until I physically hauled him out- what do I do? What is the consequence? He doesn't respond when we talk about it after the event; removing something he cares about escalates the situation to a hysterical meltdown and makes it both scary and unsafe for his younger sister, and anyway what do you do with the stuff you've confiscated when he's tall enough to climb over staircases and just goes into the room to get it back? Everything seems to escalate to.my physically restraining him, which is awful, and is never how we have parented.

Because I know it's the obvious first assumption to make - we always follow through on sanctions. A tantrum has never once in his entire life got him what he wants. He doesn't seem to be learning from that. He doesn't have screen time - maybe a film once a month or so. (Meltdowns ensue when it's over, so we very rarely do it.) The only things he loves are being read to and played with, which I'm not inclined to think withdrawing is a good idea, though I have tried to explain to him that if he isn't nice to people, they won't want to do nice things for him. (I also tell him constantly how much I love him, praise him for everything he does right, find things to tell him he's amazing at, all day.)

It's got to the point that I don't want to take him out, because he will kick off at some point, and his sister is living in a high tension, high conflict household. Happy to be told I'm a shit parent, but please accompany it with some practical strategies of what you would do if he were yours.

That was far too long. Sorry. TL:DR: my almost five year old is out of control. Please advise on how you would handle him.

You stop trying to make him respond as you wish him to in that moment. He cannot do it, eg apologise, at least not then (you can always chat later, make a card etc). It's not that he won't, he's just not able. He is too overwhelmed or distressed or out of control.

I think that's the difference in ND parenting really. The understanding that sometimes a ND child simply can't behave as we might expect a NT child of the same age to. This is not bad behaviour and people often need to adjust their expectations in order to help the child.

I don't know if your child is ND of course OP, but I mention this because you said upthread you were parenting him using ND techniques - but the expectations you have don't seem to match with this iyswim? I find many of the techniques used for ND children to be helpful for NT children too in any case. I have kids who are ND and NT and my ND child especially has taught me to be very patient. I also sometimes need to ignore what others think of as 'good parenting' as it's just not right for my child if he's distressed. Others will see it as me being too easy on him/ lax parenting etc but it's really not. It's just they have no experience of ND or my child or both.

There's been a lot of suggestion about ND, but if this was the case I think it would be unlikely for this behaviour to come out of the blue. You have said he was always an angel and this behaviour is very new. Its possible you'd have had more signs/consistent behaviour like this before the age of 5 if it was a ND. From the small amount of information, it sounds more situational. Obvious signs point to the starting of school. If so, it is likely to be a phase that you might have to patiently wait out whilst you take extra steps to really look after yourself.

My son's coming up to 3, but he's always shown this sort of behaviour and needed almost constant co-regulation ever since he was born (expected of newborns obviously!). I don't know if he's ND, but he's never not been intense.

I make the point of saying to really step up looking after yourself (aka getting proper time alone to decompress) because as a mother of two, your mental health is extremely important, and battling your son all day won't be good for it.

With the car shenanigans, if you daughter wasn't with you/getting fussy (I assume she was getting upset cause she was tired) I'd have waited it out. Maybe sat in the passenger seat, put some music on and had a little car disco for 5/10. Give him some control, give him some connection, and if you still need to man handle him out afterwards then you've done your best and don't need to feel shit about it.

Your 2 year old was with you and she needed to sleep... Would she not have slept in the car? Option 2 would have been to strap them both back in, give him your phone with Disney+ (it has a screenlock function) and gone for a mooch down the motorway for an hour.

I'm a fan of emergency treats (aka bribes). They aren't for stopping tantrums, but they're there for when there's no other option. In this scenario, failing the other two options, my emergency bribe would have been to offer opportunity to access his current obsession on the TV/YouTube (so for us that's videos of diggers) AND a top tier snack, so for him that would be a bowl of ice cream.

It's really got to be stuff he adores but rarely gets. The naughty, unhealthy stuff. It won't kill him, and if it's only ever used in totally random emergency situations that he can't predict, then he's not going to be able to manipulate situations to get bribes. Unless he's a legit evil mastermind, of course.

I know you said he will kick off once the TV goes off, but then you bring out a (wholesome) emergency tantrum stopper... so for us currently, that's the bubble machine, or a basin filled with flour. I hate both of these so they rarely come out, but I don't need to participate in these things so they're great if I've got other things to do. Baking is a lovely one but sometimes I don't have the bandwidth. Always something sensory and engaging though. His favourite music always helps us with transitions, too. I have wireless toddler headphones for my son if I don't want to hear 'Trucks' on repeat.

These specific things might not work exactly for your situation as your son is older, but I guess I'm saying you need to have a shitload of contingency plans at all times.

Expect the best, prepare for the worst.

Good luck! 💐

Maybe just stop giving him the time of day as much

You sound over board

The Explosive Child by Ross Greene could be helpful.

The thing is I don't know that it has come out of the blue - yes, OP talks about a "sharp decline since January" (interesting to think about what might have changed/reached a head in January - school might have stepped up in expectations? Vitamin D levels reached a critical low? Low-level virus after virus?)

But there are other signs that this isn't a totally new thing.

OP talks about "gradually deteriorating" (OP - you don't mention a time scale for this).

That tantrums have always been ignored but ignoring them hasn't stopped him having them - whereas most children do slow down with tantrums around 3-4 years old.

School have noticed sensory seeking and presumably emotional dysregulation, since they are doing emotional regulation activities with him. (Since September or just since Jan?) However OP also says "no teachers have raised concerns" - ?

OP says "I have always thought there is something slightly ND about him" - based on observation of children she works with.

And he seems "obsessed" with control (again no timescale given here).

I think the comment about he used to be an angel is throwing people off - IME this can happen if you have been quite sensitive and automatically put in place lots of accommodations to work around a child's difficulties, so they are basically doing well because they can, and then at the point where the expectations (from the rest of the world, or other things) start to outweigh your capacity to accommodate their difficulties, then you start seeing the stress behaviours come in, so it looks like a little angel turned into a little monster, but in reality it's more that as the parent you see what they are like when they are calm and coping, but you also see what they are like when they are struggling, and it's about trying to explain to a third party, no, I know he's not always like that, he has a good side. This is all mixed up I think in ideas about children's behaviour being some kind of predictor of future morality. It's hard to untangle those ideas and we all come with our own biases.

TBH, and I know this won't be welcome, DS2 showed the most marked improvement when I cut down his day from getting home at 5pm to gettong home before 2pm. We can do this because we're not in the UK so he is not of compulsory school age yet.

This has put the brakes on me working at least for now - I am hoping to do a course in the mornings and go to work in a few years. Or get a PT job in the mornings. That is disappointing TBH but maybe gives me chance to train (hopefully).

I am not saying give up work, but as a thought experiment, it might be worth thinking about what it might look like to give him a shorter day, if you absolutely HAD to, e.g. if the ASC suddenly closed (or even excluded him). For example, how long is he at ASC? Could a childminder, or someone like a grandparent be an option after school instead? Does ASC have to be every day? Would DH be able to do any pick ups, would it need to be you, OP? What would it look like for the family for one or both of you to reduce hours?

And, would it even make any difference - could you check in with school and see if they are seeing the sensory seeking type or struggling behaviours more at any certain threshold of time? Because if it's a clear split between fine at school, not fine at ASC, or the sensory seeking is starting right at the end of the school day, then it might be that he's just reached his threshold by the end of the school day, in which case it might be (theoretically) helpful to bring him home at the end of school. Whereas if he's reaching his limit much earlier in the day then it might not help anyway. Or if it's ASC which specifically is stressful then a different type of after-school care might work better.

So would it be possible/what would the cost be, which includes the cost of things like your own mental health/sense of self-worth in working, and would it be helpful. Not "you must do this" or "this is not possible" because in reality it's never as black and white as that - but it helps to consider options seriously before you're forced to.

And alternatives - if he is struggling in the school environment maybe there is something that could help here. Is there a quieter part of the school that he might be allowed to go to sort of "reset"? Is he struggling with a busy playtime, lunchtime etc and this is draining his capacity for the rest of the day? Are there learning topics that are more difficult for him which are just draining all of his resources? (This is where it's good to get assessment on things like hearing, speech, sight, and check in with the teachers to see if he might be struggling with any aspects of learning - expressing that you're not looking to push him on academics, you're just looking for sources of stress.)

Thank you, everyone, so much for such insightful feedback, much of which has given me significant cause for thought.

@BertieBotts , your posts are as if you know us. These are exactly what I would have said if I were able to express myself better. I also completely agree that ASC is, though not the whole problem, a significant contributor. We've been looking into the possibility of a nanny (money is obviously an issue with that, but I think the potential difficulties of a childminder outweigh that for us).

I said to my boss last week that if the situation doesn't improve, I won't be able to keep my job. I don't think that would actually be good for any of us (not least because of the bloody mortgage renewal coming up), but I fear it's probably where we're heading.

The problem with school hours is that I'm a teacher (my school finishes later than DS's and, obviously, no opportunity for wfh) and DH works a two hour commute away. I just don't know what alternatives we could use, but you're right that we need to figure something out.

I suppose I don't know how long we wait, hoping it's a phase and will improve, or whether we should just do something drastic.

I also meant to say sorry to others who are struggling with this, but thank you so much for sharing your stories - it is very validating to hear that it isn't just us, and I hope that things improve for you all soon.

I will add I would be very, very reluctant to give up work just because once you're not in work, then it becomes harder to get back into work because you're always battling the guilt of oh, he needs me at home (etc). Especially if you get a sense of fulfilment from working. It's different if you are working to make ends meet and you'd love some more time at home.

Obviously if it really is the best thing for everyone then that's the way it is, just make sure you really have explored all other options - I think what typically happens is it's the mum's career which is seen as "optional" and that can be so, so limiting and frustrating. For example you say DH has a 2 hour commute but could he look at something closer or you look at moving closer to his work? Any WFH potential or him starting much earlier in the day to finish early? If you are thinking about stopping work, then it's useful to have a longer term plan in mind e.g. take a year out with a view to going back the following year.

And yes a nanny is a good idea to look at. When you're looking at the cost of a nanny, remember not to weigh it against the cost of ASC if this is not really working, weigh it against the cost of things like you giving up your job or changing to a related but shorter day (e.g. TA or office staff still within school, nursery worker etc) or the cost of the stress on DS making it difficult for him to engage with school - as it will be cumulative.

It might be that if you can liase with school to figure out the most stressful components of his day you can find a way to alleviate those for him in order that he is better able to cope with the other parts. They sound like they are fairly clued up if they have some sensory awareness and emotional regulation strategies.

I don't know why but it's easier to be clear about other people's situations. If you read any of my threads on here talking about DS2 (or DS1 back in the day!) I come across as totally clueless I think it's just really hard to apply the theory to your own real life.

Very wise words there.

Increase exercise, walking and running etc
Remove all screens except a short amount of Tv with family each day
Stick at offeingr 2 closed choices only- shall I put your shoes on or will you do it? Do you want carrot or peas? Stick at it- it will work again- escalate it for a while if needed . Do you want peas or no veg? Do you want to put your shoes on or not put them on and not go out etc?

Sending solidarity because this is more or less my life with my 5 year old boy. He has a 2 year old sister too but also a 4 month old baby so lots of stress and divided attention. Also very bright but struggles hugely with regulation. He always has, but it goes in waves of intensity. I’m also a teacher, ex-senco and amazed to find myself having such a hard time. But here we are! Ditto a few poster above who talk about parenting of some children just being much harder than others.
A few things that are helping us:

• talking about ‘big feelings’. It seems to be language he’s comfortable with and something he can recognise in himself. I can say it to him and him to me and increasingly it can help us head something off before it spirals.
• Talking about ‘finding solutions’ or ‘solving it’. So with the car situation for example (and just for reference I haul both him and the 2 year old in and out of the car all the time and you shouldn’t beat yourself up about that) if he wants to play about in the car and you need to get his sister to sleep, talking about ‘finding a solution’ can lead to something like coming back out to the car for a play once she’s asleep or being allied to play for 30 seconds or whatever. I think it might also be called collaborative problem solving, but whatever form of words works for him.
• We’ve started to more deliberately find time for him with us adults without the younger ones. We always say we will but we let it slip. So for example on Saturday night we get the younger ones to bed then watch Gladiators together with sweets. I also got someone to babysit his sister so I could take him to swimming lessons alone to give him calmer time and all my attention.
• I currently work v part time so that he doesn’t go to ASC because I don’t think he could cope. Big repurcussions for my career and our finances but not sure what my options are really. My husband also only does 4 days to facilitate too. I think a 2 he commute is quite long and it would be reasonable to start a conversation about what adjustments could be made with that. I also think it’s reasonable to have a conversation with work along the lines of ‘my son is struggling, we’re not sure if there are some additional needs in play’ but I need to be able to pick him up from school. I’d very much like to hold down this job and wonder what reasonable adjustments can be made to my timetable to allow me to do that? For example, can your PPA be distributed so that you finish slightly earlier each day and work in the evenings? Can you work 0.6/7/8 and have an earlier finish each day rather than a day off? Can you have a half term unpaid sabbatical to try to focus on family and hope to crack some of these issues? These things are possible and preferable for most schools than losing you entirely.
• I echo what others say about physical causes. For us he needs to eat enough and sleep enough. So I move heaven and earth to get as many calories in him as possible, which is hard because he’s not that interested in food. And we’ve worked hard to have expectations about sufficient sleep.
• I’ve tried to minimise excitement. Christmas took it out of him as he was too wired, even though we are quite low key at him about it. So just trying to have very gentle and restful weekends is helping.
• I’m giving him more outdoor exercise than I was over Christmas/early Jan when things were worse and it’s helping. Riding his bike to and from schools seems to healthily discharge additional stress energy.
• I do use physical restraint when needed and use the language someone said above ‘I won’t let you do…’ I also say ‘we all have a right to be happy and safe’ quite a lot as it seems to catch more or less all situations.
• We don’t really have any punishments. We have consequences but not really punishments. For example last weekend he had a giant meltdown coming back from a park when we were planning to go to a cafe. We didn’t go and he was mortified. I explained it was because a cafe is a pleasant treat and so I didn’t want to waste that on a time when there would be shouting/misbehaving/upset and that other people would also be there as a treat so it’s not fair for them to have stress and telling off around them. I expressed that I was sad too but that we’d try again next weekend. As others have said, I think he actually felt better as I had safely held a boundary for him.
• I’m not a lover of stickers/bribery but I recently asked him if he wanted to start getting dressed more independently (as this is a source of stress and a pinch on my time in the mornings). I said that he could choose to have help but if he wanted to try alone then he could earn a sticker. If he gets ten, then I have a v small prize for him. It’s some paper aeroplane craft thing we’ll do together. He’s loving it and it’s radically changed getting dressed time in the few days we’ve been at it. But because I let him choose, he has still had some times where I help or dress him, which I think is fair enough at 5. If there’s some particular task or moment that causes stress you could try something like this.

Thanks to other posters too as I’ve reflected on a few things after reading. Hope some of this helps. It’s all so hard and upsetting, but hopefully brighter times are not far away.