Can you talk me through behaviour management for an almost five year old?

[numberthirtytwowindsorgardens]

Because DS is completely out of control and I don't know what to do about it.

His behaviour has been gradually deteriorating - he used to be an angel - and since January has gone into a sharp decline. He now has the most OTT reaction to being told no - he will scream, hit at his worst, at his best, talk back, say 'no you won't' if I explain what will happen, destroy things.

I've always done straightforward consequences - hit me with something, that something goes away until he can prove to me he can behave - but I am at an absolute loss as to what to do now. If he does something bad - today, for example, having thrown the mother of all tantrums at leaving a playdate, he refused to get out of the car, and scrambled around all the seats until I physically hauled him out- what do I do? What is the consequence? He doesn't respond when we talk about it after the event; removing something he cares about escalates the situation to a hysterical meltdown and makes it both scary and unsafe for his younger sister, and anyway what do you do with the stuff you've confiscated when he's tall enough to climb over staircases and just goes into the room to get it back? Everything seems to escalate to.my physically restraining him, which is awful, and is never how we have parented.

Because I know it's the obvious first assumption to make - we always follow through on sanctions. A tantrum has never once in his entire life got him what he wants. He doesn't seem to be learning from that. He doesn't have screen time - maybe a film once a month or so. (Meltdowns ensue when it's over, so we very rarely do it.) The only things he loves are being read to and played with, which I'm not inclined to think withdrawing is a good idea, though I have tried to explain to him that if he isn't nice to people, they won't want to do nice things for him. (I also tell him constantly how much I love him, praise him for everything he does right, find things to tell him he's amazing at, all day.)

It's got to the point that I don't want to take him out, because he will kick off at some point, and his sister is living in a high tension, high conflict household. Happy to be told I'm a shit parent, but please accompany it with some practical strategies of what you would do if he were yours.

That was far too long. Sorry. TL:DR: my almost five year old is out of control. Please advise on how you would handle him.

Just to say also that visual timetables and earning marbles have really worked for us. Anything highly structured that makes him feel safe really.

You have had some lovely responses here - I hope you don't mind if I also bookmark and look back at them sometimes because I loge the idea of the toy exploring what is wrong.

I try and talk about what’s going to happen before it happens. So we are going to go into shop and buy this, leave shop and go house for lunch.

But mainly also I avoid things that cause stress at the weekends where they will find it too much and we spend a lot of time outside where they are safe to play with sticks, leaves or whatever in a safe environment without being surrounded by modern life. It works really well until we have to do our homework

Lots of good suggestions here already. I would suggest slowing down and giving time. Try and give him lots of warnings before a transition. Try and get over the transitions for example when getting out the car, who can get to the door first? Who is going to put the key in the door, me or you?

Be ready sometimes to wait it out, so if he won't get out the car tell him you are going to do a quick job in the garden and you'll be back in a minute to see if he's ready. I sometimes used to get out my book and start reading, that worked well, as DS hates seeing my attention on anyone/anything else.

Try and build in extra time so you aren't rushing and do less stuff. When he goes to school, get up really early and be the first person there, so that you are nt under time pressure and you've got a safety margin before you start feeling stressed.

I think it sounds like you are doing an incredible job. My 3 year old is exactly like this - sometimes her behaviour can be utterly appalling and I feel so much despair that I must be seriously going wrong as a parent. Truthfully, I don’t understand how she can be so difficult, and I truly don’t feel most other parents have to jump through the hoops I do just to get through the day.

i read responses like you’ve got here and just feel inadequate. I really do try most of these things most of the time but we can’t seemingly do one single thing without distraction, bribery or some trick or negotiation. It’s like she absolutely must defy every small thing I ask, even if it’s something she wants to do. It’s soul destroying.

so no advice, just solidarity.

Oh @Giveupnow (don't!!) - I absolutely share your feelings. We almost never go to class birthday parties (he doesn't cope immensely well with them), but we went to one a couple of weeks ago of a boy in his class who's a good friend from nursery. The other mums stood around drinking coffee and chatting. I spent the entire time dogging his footsteps after another mum told me to keep him away from her daughter.

It's not you. I'd be willing to bet actual money you're doing a great job. Sending solidarity back your way x

He sounds a lot like my DS. There are an awful lot of things that could point to a ND diagnosis but currently he is too ‘high functioning’ (for want of a better expression) to trigger a referral too. When we point out that’s because we ‘manage’ him to within an inch of our existence we’ve been told ‘that’s parenting’. I believe that less and less as I see my other child and nephews and nieces develop. They are the sort of children who would still thrive with any level of okay parenting. DS would fall apart. He exhausts me to a level I don’t think is normal. Anyway, the wheels are beginning to fall off at pre school so we shall see. In the meantime, we often employ PDA/autistic demand avoidance strategies which seem to help - the PDA UK website is really good x

This stuck out to me as I have a ds who was all about control (when we had him assessed by a neuropsych when he was 7 they picked it up too). Some suggestions

start talking about how some things are a choice and some things arent a choice. Try and work lots of choice moments into his day (but only give two choices at any one point). So which colour pajamas you wear is a choice, but wearing pajamas is not a choice. Once he and you are rock solid on that, if you come to a you have to get out of the car moment, telling him that it isnt a choice may cut through and stop the melt down

Separately start with a visual calendar for the day that you can go through at breakfast. Talk with him about what the day will look like and let him pick up pictures of all the activities and put them in order on a timeline (add breakfast, lunch and dinner and bedtime for reference points). Then talk through parts of the day when neither you or him know what will happen (basically most of the school day) so he knows ahead of time that he is going to have to roll with the punches. If you want add in looking up the weather forecast and then talk about how that impact what clothes he should wear. Try and phrase it in ways that let him run the process.

then at bedtime, have a little chat about how his day went, what he liked and what he didnt like. Sympathise with the didnt likes and talk strategies about how he could handle it another time and ask him (and add your own suggestions) what you and DH could do to help him get through it….things as simple as not talking to him for 30 mins when you pick him up from school may be helpful. Then remind him that you will do the DS Day Planner the next morning at breakfast with him so he goes to sleep knowing you are there to help him

When you get to a day where you just dont know what is going to happen, tell him at breakfast. I found that if my DS knew it was a day that we had no idea about, he could roll with it as it was just one day. And if something changes in a day that he did have planned, tell him as far ahead as you can, give him some time to incorporate the new plan and then let him know that you have confidence that he can adjust and cope.

and this might work, and it might not work, the best parents pick and chose from strategies that have worked for other dc and then customise them for their own dc. Every dc is different.

@VivaVivaa what you have written here is exactly how I feel. I couldn’t put it into words before!!

“When we point out that’s because we ‘manage’ him to within an inch of our existence we’ve been told ‘that’s parenting’. I believe that less and less as I see my other child and nephews and nieces develop. They are the sort of children who would still thrive with any level of okay parenting. DS would fall apart. He exhausts me to a level I don’t think is normal“

and being honest, I feel so fucking sick of it. I don’t have any confidence that I’m doing the right thing, I’m lost. I don’t know whether I’m too strict, or not strict enough and that’s why she’s so difficult. None of the strategies you see parroted out on here work. And yes the replies on this thread are lovely and sensible but I just don’t feel like most parents have to try this hard? Is this the normal standard of parenting, and I’m just totally inadequate? How do most people cope?

He's having problems with transitions - end of a movie, leaving a playdate...
What do they do in school to signal a transition to another activity?

He goes berserk when he hears the word No and won't talk about his behaviour..
He is very invested in his own opinions and activities and fights any challenge. You need to ask him to do an emotions check as he's playing. Does he feel relaxed or frustrated? A coloured card system might help.
Kids his age can get very frustrated with toys that won't do what they imagine they should do or other kids who have their own opinion about how a game should go. Ask him about his expectations and ask him how he will react if a game doesn't go his way.

You are forced to intervene physically to restrain or haul him from a car...
I'd keep doing the physical restraint as much as you're able to, as the situation demands, and don't feel bad about it. He needs to feel the sensory expression of someone stronger and more determined than he is.

I'd also insist that he engages in conversations about what happened and how he thinks he'll behave in future. You and his dad need to make this happen. It can be done obliquely by means of acting out the tantrum together or reading a book together as a conversation prompt.

Everywhere you go, he needs a pep talk and a clear description of expected behaviour. Every activity you do at home needs a pep talk beforehand.
He needs a clear heads up that an activity or movie is almost over, and he needs to indicate to you that he heard you and is preparing himself to move on to the next activity peacefully. You need to develop a checklist for him to facilitate disengaging emotionally and retaining self control.

I'd get him assessed for neurodivergence.

I'd also make him apologise to the person he told to shut up for the afternoon. Don't let him get away with abusing anyone like that.

What exact behaviours do you include under the category of 'sensory seeking'?

He chews his clothes (at the neck, collar, bottom of jumpers or any drawstrings on trousers) compulsively. He hugs people (other children, adults) all the time, whether they want it or not, but hard - if his sister snatches a toy or frustrates him in some way he will grab her and squeeze her really hard.

So the make him apologise thing is the sort of thing I was thinking of when I started this thread. How do I make him? Obviously I told him that he had to, and we stood there and he ignored me, and I repeated it, and he refused to. How long do we (and the ASC, lady, who needs to go back inside) stand there waiting for him? He wasn't going to do it. How do I make him? (To be clear, it's not that I don't think it's important that he should apologise- I was absolutely mortified that he had behaved like that - I just don't know how you force a child to do something they are absolutely adamant they won't.)

Deep down, he feels terrified of being in control, and every time he behaves in a way that seeks to assert control he causes a spiral of attaining control -> anxiety. So you need to become very conscious of your words and actions, and show him in every interaction that you're the one in control.

The physical restraint you see as problematic might be very reassuring to him. If you have to do this, speak in a clear, low voice as you do it, not a high pitched or shrieky voice.

You can use the phrase "I won't let you do X" while restraining and in most other situations.
www.janetlansbury.com/2014/04/setting-limits-with-respect-what-it-sounds-like-podcast/

Don't use the word 'please'. Some children take an instruction that includes the word please as an option, not a direct order. They interpret civility and modeling of pleasant vocal interactions as weakness.

Visual timetables with pictures. Lots of reassurance “ First we are going here. THEN we will go to the park.” Keep to simple repetition. Give him warnings ahead of leaving anywhere “ We are going in a little while so have a last play “ type thing. Thinking of the hugging , does he have a weighted blanket or even a cute-shaped door stop to hold to give that secure feeling . You sound sensible and loving but anxious which is understandable. If at all possible make sure you get some time for you.

Try giving a choice of the form the apology should take. He has to choose one form. No apology isn't an option.

He writes a note saying I am sorry/ draws a picture of himself and the woman he said shut up to with the word sorry on the page somewhere.
Or he can say the phrase to her.

If you offer the choice, he might feel he has a little more control over the situation, but you accomplish your aim too. It is very important that he apologises. The woman he apologises to can demonstrate acceptance of remorse with a friendly response. He can learn that climbing down results in good feelings and it isn't a defeat.

He needs to apologise at home too, for this incident and all others where he has hurt someone or destroyed something. Apologising means accepting accountability. It means acknowledging someone else's reality. These are two basic lessons necessary for leaving ego driven behaviour behind and developing into a more mature personality.

The 'hugging' is aggression. It has a stronger sensory component than kicking, hitting, or pulling hair, hence its attraction, I suspect.
The chewing is anxiety.

I have sympathy OP. My almost 5 year old has been up and down like a yo-yo since going back to school in January. He was an ANGEL over Christmas break and is ordinarily fairly relaxed. People told us this term would be tricky.
Our general presumption is that he’s tired and overwhelmed so we’re working hard to keep things calm. But he can go off over nothing which is hard work when I’m trying to do a work meeting and DH is making tea. 4-6pm is usually about survival, then he seems to relax once he’s in the bath!

Anyway last week was particularly tricky (with some hitting which is very unusual) and ultimately he woke up one morning screaming so DH took him to the docs and she said inside both his ears were red raw, he had an ear infection and had never mentioned it, no temp or anything. We had no idea and the doc said it had probably been going on a while. He’s been so much better this weekend. Just backing up what the others are saying about potential physical issues.

@mathanxiety this is very interesting and you speak with a lot of authority. I always say please to my DD as I was trying to model language to her but maybe your right and this is making it seem like an option. How do you know what the right thing to do is tho? As for every argument there is a counter theory it seems. I have no idea what’s right.

I really understand and feel for you on this. We struggle every day with what feels like the distortion of the family unit. He fights compulsively for control when winning makes him and everyone else around him miserable.

Something one of your pps said about the winning only driving anxiety resounded for us. I should say also that our son is very bright and high attaining, to the point that it was a back and forth for a long time as to what contributed to it. We settled on the language of autistic traits with school which only helped, as we were leaving the question open but they could also provide targeted support around the things he couldn't cope with including busy playgrounds and noise.

My niece was like this, and for quite a while, maybe between three and six? I would go against the grain and say it isn’t always anything in particular. After a huge tantrum it was like she didn’t remember. She would apologise if asked to, but she could never explain why.. or even really remember it. I wonder if it’s just a growth/synapse lapse thing. So we stopped asking her to talk about them and definitely stopped asking her to apologise.

Instead it was a combination of time out in her room (she often fell asleep) and manhandling (facing outwards so they can’t bite or kick) arm under the arms and one under the bottom. Keep on explaining calmly that you’ve got to go and if they wriggle too much they might hurt themselves or you. Lots of talk of ‘that’s how it is/it’s just the rules’

One thing that did help slightly was being told the plan. Ie: today we are x,y,z (no exact times) but also a might also happen. Tomorrow we are … next week will probably…

She hit eight and was totally chilled (although still likes to know the plan).

We call it the banana baby 😂

Lots of good advice on here already. Imo he has a need to feel 'safe' all the time, and needs to be reassured a lot. Having to stay at after school club might be one of the major reasons - and not because it's your fault, but just because some children will struggle with that for some time, while others will be perfectly fine. He sounds like a deeply feeling child.

Remember that his meltdowns + unwanted behaviour are linked to him being overwhelmed emotionally and not being able to handle himself/ to regulate himself. To help him regulate enforced consequences won't work. You need to tolerate his feelings yourself - stay calm and tell him it's fine and it (the anger, the upset) will pass. He's probably scared of the way he feels - needs you to show him you're in control, it's safe, it's fine. A bit like teaching swimming, I suppose. Taking toys away because he's not doing it right will not teach him anything constructive.

So the make him apologise thing is the sort of thing I was thinking of when I started this thread. How do I make him? Obviously I told him that he had to, and we stood there and he ignored me, and I repeated it, and he refused to. How long do we (and the ASC, lady, who needs to go back inside) stand there waiting for him? He wasn't going to do it. How do I make him? (To be clear, it's not that I don't think it's important that he should apologise- I was absolutely mortified that he had behaved like that - I just don't know how you force a child to do something they are absolutely adamant they won't.)

You apologise instead of him - sorry that happened, etc. Role model. He won't be able to do it until he's able to do it. You need to remember this is not on purpose. He's not doing it to spite you. He is not able to.
Show empathy to him in the moment - you must be feeling very upset right now to behave like this. And tell him the rule - I am not going to let you cause harm/ hurt. Tell him what is acceptable to do when upset. Stay calm. Hug, move on. Deal with things at the actual moment they happen.

Could you have a kind of visual timetable? So he knows when things are going to happen. If you’re at a play date you tell him before it starts that at this point you’re going to get ready to go and at this point we leave. Maybe have something in the car he likes. A packet of crisps or a biscuit. Does he like things like cooking? Could you plan a day together and talk about what his positive behaviour will look like? If he can’t cope in certain situations stop doing them for a while.

Talk to him about emotions - there are a lot of books around which talk about emotions - so he can maybe articulate how he is feeling.
My big Shouting day is a great book which is both funny and spot on!!

I would look into screening for ND issues. You can find online screeners for ADHD/ASD for various ages, some of them are a bit dubious, but it's a starting point to take to the school SENCo or GP or HV.

He is very similar to my eldest who was diagnosed with ADHD much later (ironically he then immediately calmed down ) and my middle one, who is five, we are currently watching and waiting on but a strong suspicion of something going on for him. He's also been referred for speech therapy because of a combination of a few letter sounds which aren't yet clear - I would check this because this also applied to my eldest, but we were in the UK at the time and this wasn't screened for there. (We now live abroad). Looking back at milestones, he was already slightly behind on speech at 3.5 / 4 but this was not picked up then.

The speech therapist has given us homework to do both for the speech issues, but also to help him with concentration, memory and attention, which is not something that my eldest ever had targeted help with.

You cannot get a child to do things like rationalise, apologise, learn etc when they are in the moment of meltdown/stress. At best you'll get a barked "Sorry" with absolutely no feeling behind it and no understanding of what he is doing or why or any sense of remorse attached to it - a pointless exercise. A better approach to this is to consider reflect and repair - so later on, or even the next day, when the child is calmer, talk to them about the incident that happened at school or whatever, talk about the effect on the other person, and ask them to think of a way they could repair such as saying sorry to the person, giving them a hug, bringing them a small present such as a picture, card, writing them an apology letter (for older kids), doing something nice for the person, etc.

What I have found really helpful is learning about the nervous system and how some children go very easily into a fight or flight type state - this is actually quite complicated, but I like the "three brain model" which is used in Dan Siegel/Tina Payne Bryson's books, and in the Conscious Discipline model by Becky A Bailey. Conscious Discipline I like because they talk about three brain modes - the thinking brain (when a child is engaged and fully able to think and respond appropriately) and the emotion brain (which is where they are activated and lashing out, but this tends to be verbal - I hate you, you are stupid, go away, leave me alone, just stop it, shut up, random disagreeing/refusing etc) and then the fight brain (which is all in the body - it's physical lashing out, running away, or sometimes curling up in a ball non responsive.)

I find this very helpful because it is tempting to roll these all into one - verbal and physical aggression - when really they are different states and by noticing a shift from one to the other, you can tell that a child is calming down.

Also, if you are getting a lot of "emotional brain" behaviour, then your child's overall stress level is probably quite high.

No. This is ND parenting, IME.

The SEN section on MN is lovely BTW and does cut out a lot of the frustrating responses (not referring to any on this thread - people here have been helpful).

Lots of advice here to help
Just wanted to say keep in mind he is only 5.
It is easy to forget how young a child is, both physically and emotionally, especially when a child appears articulate, they can appear so much more mature than they really are, especially once they have a younger sibling, they seem more capable than their years.
Make a conscious effort to lower your expectations. When your child, who you think is perfect, behaves in a less than perfecf way, it can feel mortifying, but you are not alone having these challenges and this is likely to be a phase.
He will be really tired and overwhelmed with adjusting to school, so needs some slack.
Tantrums, try to divert if possible, othewise calmly ignore, once they are over, they are forgotten ( he will forget very quickly why he had one and not really be able to explain why it happened)
Avoid long chats about his behaviour they will make him believe his behaviour is negative. Actions and consequences mean more at this age, including ignoring negative behaviour as much as possible.
Lots of praise, whenever you can.
Talk him up and make sure he knows how proud you are of him. Before you go out, explain where you are going what is going to happen and how you are looking forward to going with him as he is so great to go out with and when you finish, as he will be have been so helpful, he will get a small reward or treat with you ( 5 year olds respond very well to bribery). Keep trips short and sweet if possible, get him to help with something and praise etc
Make sure he over hears you saying to other relatives how great he has been.
Limit extra curricular activity
Lower your expectations of yourself, you have 2 very young children, it is exhausting
I am sure you are doing most of this, but when you are in the middle of everything, it is sometimes good to stand back and breathe
Remember you can't always reason with a small child and don't get drawn into a debate or argument with him. You are the adult and he is looking to you to be in control, be calm, give him clear direction and contain his overwhelming emotions, as he is not mature yet to be able to do so

Also, there is nothing wrong with a bit of TV to help wind down after school, sitting together, having a cuddle and just chilling, not hours of screen time, just something for 30 minutes age appropriate to help him rest his body and mind.

I would also try using demand avoidant language with him as a pp said.