who's a naughty step expert then...?

[Monkeybird]

Is not working. 3 yr old will not sit on it (despite bashing and headbutting his big brother when tired). Have asked nicely, have tried gently restraining. Seems to have little effect. Am I just losing nerve to early? Or should try something different?

no sanctimony detected at my end. actually was rofling at notion of 3 boys with flashing lights and sirens strapped on to their heads 24hrs a day. Would have to shoot myself then obv.

Am very glad to hear nice chilled out perspectives on parenting. suspect we've Gone Too Far down the shouty route and don't like it. Will have hard job convincing DH there are alternatives.

but just to chuck in summat else: have friends who Never Shout nor seem to do anything other than gentle persuasion. At least one of these has a child who is a total rude twat when at our house. Try to forgive as child is only 7, but can't help making the connection. I know I don't know what goes on in others' private lives but am worried about having no standards. How do others manage it...?

Yes there is a clear but definite difference between permissive parenting and gentle but firm.

You can have boundaries and be firm and rules and still try to find alternatives though can't you?

I also have friends who's child is frankly indulged and set no limits to behaviour, in that if he hits then he is comforted with no disucssion of consequences or impact. That wouldn't be my preferred route.

I think you can have comsequences, natural ones are best, the old, if they choose not to wear a coat okay their choice but a natural consequence is they'll get a bit chilly and soon be asking for one, but it was their choice and they still felt in control of their lives and you avoided a fight.

The hitting, a natural consequence is that the happy person you were playing with is now hurt and doesn't want to play. If you (ds) had done something different then everyone could still be playing.

So you can try and offer alternatives, when my dd gets frustrated with her little bro for snatching her toy I have taught little tricks to get what she wants, she can try asking him nicely, she can try distracting him or she can pretend she's interested in something else so that he wants that new thing then she can go back to the originnal toy. Or she can tell me about it. It isn't okay for her to snatch back.

My ds is only 18m so I and my dd make allowances for the fact he is still working out how to play and share with us. We say, hey Slurboy why not do x, y, z? and if he still pisses her off, I do step in and take him to play with something elase, because my dd is only 3.5 and I make allowances for the fact she can't be expected to cope with snatching all the time, and I don't want her in a position where she feels so frustrated she wants to whallop him.

I have rules, but be flexible. I have boundaries but I try to understand when they cross them.

My dd has hit but most often it is for a veryt understandable reason so I talk to her, she feels bad anyway no need for me to make it worse really, I offer alternatives.

FFS moved from sanctimony to essay writing.

I shouldn't be here!

MB, just a quick nopte on my perspe3ctive re: other peoples children, if you are seeing a 'gentle persuasion' type thing at 7yo in your company, can I just suggest that gentle persuasion is an 'argh please dont kick off now!' scenario rather than a 'this works for us' scenario. I do the talk and acknowledge style parenting with DD(7) and as such would not need to tell her much in company, she would probably listen to 'I'm not happy, nor are you, we'll talk later, let's just behave now, ok?' combined with a wink and hair rub. At 7 it is totally different IME because they understand a lot more.

You don't have to be 'gentle' as such, be firm, tell them it isn't happening, but rather than push them away or 'punish' them in a way they realise is punishment it can be easier to make a situation different to how they like it, like the 'Sorry ds but I don't like your attitude right now, so DS and I are going to go somewhere else until you've calmed down, if you want to talk about it, I'm here but if you're just going to kick off then I'll be elsewhere and we'll speak later'

That way it still removes the attention from them, but in a way that they are in control, and are also understood.

Sorry for crap typing/spelling, I couldnt be botehred to turn the light on

Um, my parenting is not as 'evolved' as others here (still finding my feet after 4.5 yrs!!) but for what it's worth, I have found the naughty step (in our case bottom step of staircase in hall - more of a 'time out' that happens in same place) to be helpful. I certainly don't use it in an arbitrary manner though.

I am trying to follow the "How to talk" book and am finding it useful. However, it is sometimes quite hard to put in to practice when the situation is heated. Therefore, once 2 warnings have been given, I find removing dd from the situation to calm down, (and it has to be a serious situation - should only be used sparingly imo) so that I can talk to her in a reasonable way (and she is calm enough to listen) to be quite effective.

I use it in conjunction with a traffic light system (read about it on this site). (Have red, orange and green pieces of card and encourage child to express their level of anger by holding up relevant colour instead of expressing it by hitting etc.)

Slur's point about not wanting a child to grow up to be someone who punishes others through isolating them is an interesting one - admit have never thought about that before tbh - definitely one I'll be mulling over.

However I don't think it is unreasonable to use a naughty step - not in a humiliating way (hate that) - but to reinforce the idea that when we are together as a family we treat one another kindly and with respect and if you hit or are deliberately unkind, you spend a little time away from the family to think about what you have done and calm down until we can all talk about it properly. It also underlines the idea that we are lucky to be able to be together - ie it is a privilege to be part of a family - but with that privilege comes some expectations as to how we should behave.

Or IS that unreasonable?? (Genuinely interested to know.)

Also, agree natural consequences are best but sometimes bad behaviour does get you what you want and then outside parental intervention is necessary.

Sorry Monkeybird - just realised that my 'essay' is no help at all ...

... I'm afraid I did just keep calmly leading dd back to step when she wouldn't settle in the early days - until she got the message - was just very boring about it

.. worried now I've traumatised her for life after reading all these other posts ...it does seem to have worked though ... she seems to think more about her actions but tbh that could just be her age!

I don't believe a naughty step/calm down area/sending to room to be 'short sighted'. The other methods are interesting but it worries me talking/distracting a child following bad behaviour is giving them attention. Once the child is used to this would they not just use naughty behaviour to get attention from their parent?

I find removing attention has worked brilliant for my 2 x DS. Having said that I'm talking between the ages of 2-5 yrs. I luckily can't remember the last time I had to use this on my DS age 5.

I never shout at my kids in temper/to punish. After giving them time to calm down it is then that I talk to them about what has happened.

catzy, point is you distract them before the bad behaviour.
Plus you don't have to give positive attention to let a child know what they did is wrong and not acceptable.
If I say to DS(3) 'oh, DS, what did you do that for huh? You know that's not right' in the right tone with a disappointed face he'll crumple, apologise and not do it again.

I think one of the hardest things with the naughty step is that people try to introduce it when they have no discipline in the house anyway, if I were to say to either of my two 'go and sit on the naughty step' they would, because of the discipline already there, it's pretty pointless telling a child that is already not listening to go and sit on a step, it then turns into a fight trying to make them sit there which escalates beyond control, and often leads to physical restraint.

Surely much easier to try a different tactic than have to physically hold your child to a step, therefore giving much more attention than you would have done if you had discussed what had gone on and told them it wasn't aceptable behaviour.

Can I ask how old your kids are? Sorry to hijack op.

My 2 DS's are 5 & 2.7, this worked a treat with my 5yr old when he was younger. I could just tell him I was disappointed and he would crumble but my 2.7 is a different story. He is aggresive to his older brother and it is not possible to distract him before, because it comes on so quickly. They can be playing together so nicely and then all of a sudden he'll hit his brother. When I tell him it's wrong he'll say sorry and kiss to apologise but it's ongoing. DSage5 is so soft and would never hit back (thank god). Introducing the step worked brilliantly, IMO it showed him consquences to his actions and it has improved loads. I have never restrained him, just when I started I kept returning him to the step until he learnt to stay.

Now I only have to mention the step with any bad behaviour and it's usually enough.

I am far from an expert - for starters my DS (2.5) calls the naughty step the "laundry step" as it is next to the airing cupboard where I dry all the washing! He takes himself off there sometimes if he doesnt feel like doing as I say, eg. he will say "no" (I dont want to pick up the things I have just thrown all over the floor in temper) "Ill go and sit on the laundry step" so not sure quite how much of a punishment he sees it as! Seriously though, being removed from the action when he has been naughty does seem to work and is usually an effective threat when he is playing up - its certainly not the only one I use however.