who's a naughty step expert then...?

[Monkeybird]

Is not working. 3 yr old will not sit on it (despite bashing and headbutting his big brother when tired). Have asked nicely, have tried gently restraining. Seems to have little effect. Am I just losing nerve to early? Or should try something different?

"I sometimes wonder if the naughty step is all part of getting children to behave according to adult standards as quickly as possible for fear that they will be otherwise delinquent"

walnutshell YES

but why do we feel so pressured about this? do we feel other parents are looking down their noses at us? we seem very scared our children are going to turn into brats

I blame a lot of it on progs such as supernanny

I did try the naughty step but it seemed crap, I didn't really see it change anything tbh.

Now if my two leave room it's because they are told I'm angry at what they have done and I want them to think about it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying 'I'm not impressed with your behaviour, I think you should go away and think about what you've done' but that's to my DD, she is seven and has a much bigger range of understanding. If I said that to DS it would just confuse him.

They actually take themselves away more than are sent away.

If I was in your situation (MB) I'd remove yourself and DS when things kick off rather than put your 3yo on the step.

I've found simple solutions like saying 'Oh, you're in one of those moods then are you? Well, we'll leave you to it then' and walking away can make them change out of the bad mood quite quickly!

Also another importnat thing IMO is to validate their feelings, why are they acting that way? Felling angry or sad or even agressive is fine and healthy, what you need to do is work out how to deal with those feelings, not opress them.

Can you really buy a 'naughty step' or this a joke?

When I refer to the 'Naughty step' I just mean which ever area I'm going to use to put my DS. Eg. In our house I use the bottom step of our stairs as its in the hall and away from the action. This is why I refer to it as the naughty step' If I'm at my mums who lives in a bungalow i use one of her bedrooms but still use the same name.

It's about unrealistic expectations isn't it?

For example: ds (2) doesn't sit still at the dinner table and often wanders off, comes back, eats some more etc. dh gets mildly stressed in case he 'does it when we are at someone else's house' but I think 'so what?' and have total faith in being able to gradually get him to sit and eat as he gets older (or am I deluding myself??)

However, I do hope monkeybird comes back to the thread and perhaps gets some help here.

Hmm, I'm trying to think of a constructive suggestion for you MB, but actually I don't find myself really using a technique with ds, more an approach. Will mull it over.

(Not that I'm suggesting I'm particularly successful at this parenting lark, but we do all think about it)

If we haven't been helpful, monkeybird, then I'm very sorry

I got carried away in the middle about that pad thing

if you can tell us a bit more about it I bet we can think of another strategy

Heh, the thread calling for naughty step experts has brought the Alfiettes and attached folk out in force.

(including self)

Anyway sorry monkeybird, but why not give us a go, since the naughty step clearly isn't working for your girl?

...hmm naughty step works in our house and DD once made DH sit on it for making a remark about my hair which she thought was "unkind". So fair do's he DID sit on the step on the groounds that if she was unkind she was sent there...

If they get over excited and get silly they have to be removed form the source of stimulation IMO, sometimes I have taken DD out of the room when she was getting hyper, she calmed down, we went back in.
We used the step as a "calm down" place.
We also have a "simmer down" chair where she sits to calm down if she is getting het up, but still in the room. It's more about emotional calming and mastery rather than punishment.

The alternative is to feed DD to Audrey 2 which would be cruel of course

I used to get put out in the hall and that worked a treat apparently. My parents used to say "we're putting Naughty Alicia outside now. You can come back in when Good Alicia is back." I would stand out there and kick the door and yell my head off for 10 minutes and then come back in and announce that I was "Good Alicia" again. Think I just needed to get it out of my system. Either that or I have a scary split personality.

What's an Alfiette?

Person in general agreement with Alfie Kohn!

Monkeybird - try just sending him to his room, where he can play on his own, kick and scream or do whatever he wants. Set the kitchen timer for 3 minutes, then let him leave his room if he so wishes. It's called Time-Out, and can work quite well for a while. Used sparingly it can be effective, especially if preceded by the use of the 1-2-3 warning system (see ParentMagic).

in my sisters defence i would point out she didn't buy it..her then boyfriend did and actually it did work...for a while. i haven't tried it beause as i told my sister..ds2 doesn't care if he's sent to naughty stair anyway!

oooh I haven't run away in tears, honest... Just had my mum over. Will read excellent responses and cogitate. Back shortly.

OK, got as far as Alfie Kohn (who he?)... Well, excellent balanced arguments everyone I can see this is a Great Divide issue, threatening to kick off when everyone's bored.

FWIW, I don't call 'him' naughty (have read enough shite parenting books not to label him but only his behaviour. So ostensibly step is only somewhere to go to 'think about what you have done' and 'calm down till you're ready to play nicely'.

But yeah, is rubbish with 3 year old and am never really comfortable with notion of punitiveness either.

But DS1 (who's a blardy handful, and walloped and kicked me and DH from age of 18mo till, well, now really) always just needed really firm boundaries and, I'm afraid to say it, did need consequences. He gets sent to his room now or privileges removed.

DS2 has been a dream until recently. Is still generally more laid back than DS1 but new baby, moving house and new room at nursery (all within months) have not surprisingly - doh!- had an effect on his behaviour. Although I am also quite unhappy about the new room at nursery where hitting seems to be the norm and because the staff ratios are smaller there's much less supervision. DS2 didn't hit nearly as much until he moved.

So am torn. Mostly want to empathise and recognise when he's too tired, hungry, needs change of scenery, more attention etc..

But hitting is my limit unfortunately and I won't tolerate it. Given that I won't under any circs, don't see why anyone else in the family should put up with it. And experience with DS1 tells me clear boundaries with consequences is important. With 3 kids and shortly back at work, unfortunately I simply cannot meet everyone's needs all at once sometimes. I know some of you will have been there

So what to do? Will try sending to his room to calm down, but not sure about this either... Suggestion of me and DS1 leaving room might work I suppose since DS2 loves having people around. Anyhow he's crashed out now. Wine O'clock methinks...

No I don't think you should tolerate hitting either, I am sorry if you thought that's what was meant

however given all the (entirely understandable) reasons you have given for him being a bit challenged and hitting out at the moment, it seems harsh to punish this behaviour IMO - just prevent it where possible and correct it, ie discuss what he SHOULD have done instead of hitting, which is not ok

Alfie Kohn such a thought provoking writer and well worth a read if you are uncomfortable with punitive discipline and find that short sighted methods like naughty step don't actually work for your ds
he doesn't give an easy quotable alternative but he does describe a different attitude to discipline which I think you may find helpful

no, didn't think you were condoning it. Just - also I guess - me and DH are bit at end of tether with 3-way child war, sleeplessness and lots of other stuff. Another 'doh!' moment as tired pennies drop

Will look up Alfie Kohn, thanks.

god it sounds wearing
I am at my most harsh with ds when deprived of sleep
try to work together with dh so you can laugh about this and feel supported and not overwhelmed

why are you sleep deprived? have you got a baby as well as these 2?

oh yes you already said you had
well ruddy hell I think you are doing brilliantly even thinking of alternatives for this and not just screaming your head off

still quite a lot of screaming...

ooh, monkeybrid, I do like the cut of your jib!

Everything F&Z said really. Have you tried talking to him? (On his 3yo level of course). Perhaps reflecting his emotions back at him, the "are you feeling cross?" type thingy, show your listening etc. Sorry, you have probably done this already - if you are old enough to mother the new mums on the maternity ward then I don't want to be teaching you to suck eggs!

(I mean: show you're listening

sorry, pedant)

Monkeybird, even a bit of shouting isn't the end of the world, you're in a tough place right now.

My advice from my currently calm place (that I am utterly aware will turn to yet another phase of despair sometime soon) is to play the long game if you can.

So for me that might mean thinking about how I would want my dcs to become kind thoughtful adults who not only don't hit but also don't punish each other by isolation.

That is not to say you can't remove a child from a potentially dangerous situation.

So to your sit. If your ds2 starts hitting you could ask him to stop because he is hurting someone, then if he hasn't stopped remove him and spend some explaining his impact on others. You can sympathise with his frustration and talk about better ways to deal with it. Maybe invent a signal between you when he's getting really cross and wants to hit, like a hand on your arm or a warning noise? (pictures monkeys house being filled with ds making ssiren noises ) and you will try to give him the attention he needs if you possibly can? I think the thing with the step is that if it isn't working out you find yourself almost in a wrestling situation where you're either doing something futile or worse trying to physically overpower him. Neither great.

The ALfie thing is a change of perspective but takes a bit of a mind shift which isn't always easy but worth it if you can do it. I'll let you know if I ever manage it!

Another book I have heard is ace is 'how to talk so children will listen', haven't read it myself but it's recommended.

aargh. Sorry for sounding like a sanctimonious twat. I wanted to reply but had to do so in a hurry so didn't read back first. Just meant to say that
1.you're doing your best

1. you know it'll pass so try not to get bogged down in the minutae of the incidents.

3.how about an alternative attention needing sign for your ds 4.naughty steps don't always work

5.Excuse my wankery.

Slur, you sanctimonious tw*t, excellent post

The long view, yes indeed.

Talk/listen book good reading.