Partner ‘shouts’ at child, without raising voice

[Orangepen13]

Looking for some thoughts

My partner is a secondary school teacher, and an authoritative one at that (think the ones that always picked up uniform). As long as we’ve been together, I have taken issue with him talking to me like a pupil. It’s like this, it’s never quite yelling but it’s aggressive, directive and at times patronising. I often respond “don’t shout at me” he responds “I wasn’t shouting, I didn’t raise my voice” (and continues to use the same tone of voice as he tells me off for telling him what to do). I understand part of the problem is my use of the word “shouting” which is not technically correct.

Anyway, we now have a 2yo and he speaks to her the same at times. This morning at breakfast, she was struggling that we were having a convo and pushed his hand. He pushed her hand back and said “don’t push, you’re being mean, you’ve made daddy sad” but in that shouting-not-shouting aggressive tone. Same argument ensues. I just find it so disrespectful and refuse for me or dd to be treated as if some kids at school who haven’t followed the rules. I know she needs boundaries, but I still feel she deserves respect and don’t think aggressive tone is needed.

First, any other partners (particularly of teachers) relate?
Second, am I being over sensitive as he’s not shouting? Is this just a valid way of being boundaried?
Third, help?! This has been years now and I have no idea how to describe to him the impact his tone has, or that we’re not at school!

As a PP mentioned, it is the choice of words that he used when talking to your daughter that I find troubling.
She pushed his hand first - omg what a crime (sarcasm) . So what?? She is only two. Yes perhaps address it, but not in a shaming way.
"Don't push , you are being mean .. ".
No need at all for an adult to talk to a child like that, whatever the parenting style.
What he's using is Shame and guilt : "you've made daddy sad"
And yes , very patronising, I'm sure even the 2 year old can feel that.
You and him need to sit down and talk , calmly and respectfully about this. I guess without constant reminders , he won't change.

Do you mean that he's sharp? (and authoritative perhaps to the point of being dictatorial)?

That's the teacher tone I'm picking up from your posts.

I think calling it shouting when it isn't has probably clouded things and made it easy for him to dismiss you and carry on.

He needs to learn how to step out of teacher mode in his personal relationships. Unless he wants to damage all of them.

Once your daughter starts school she will notice if her dad is still talking to her like a teacher rather than a parent.

She’s 2, no one needs to be aggressive or shout at a child that age. Firm and consistent but pushing her hand away and actions making an adult sad is just not on. Wait a minute till daddy finishes speaking to mummy and you can tell me whatever it is would’ve sufficed. You then wonder why your 2 year old speaks to everyone with an aggressive tone, you need to talk about how you want to raise your child.

I think if he spoke to me in his ‘teacher’ voice I would ask him who the heck he thinks he’s talking to, he’s at home now and to show you some respect, can’t be doing with these men who think they can talk to you how they like. Arrogance!!

Absolutely this ^^
He doesn't sound very loving towards you OP. Or like a very pleasant person.
Hard to describe in text how voice and intonation come across , but I get you .
I'm afraid to say that this sort of behaviour (disrespectful and bossy) will erode your relationship .
Serious talk and change in his attitude is needed.

This. The sooner your 2 year old realises she doesn't get to push people around the better

I think it's fine to correct a 2yo who is frustrated that two adults are having a conversation so they push at one of the adults - that wouldn't be acceptable if it was at nursery and two members of staff were talking and she pushed one of them, or if two other children were talking together and she wanted their attention so pushed at one of them. Just generally "kind hands only or keep your hands to yourself" kind of stuff. And is it inherently wrong to say that being pushed makes you feel sad, and isn't a nice thing to do?

You don't like the tone he sometimes takes with you or your daughter, that's a different matter. I'd agree calling it "shouting" if he's not shouting is a quick way to undermine your arguments though as he just points out he's not shouting, and you're left stuck. But you can be patronising and dismissive in a perfectly neutral volume!

The problem here is that he has always been this way yet you chose to stay with him and have a baby with him. I'm not sure how you expect him to change now. Hopefully he does but if he talks to you - an adult - in that way, you can't expect him to not talk to a child in the same way, seeing as that's literally what he does as a teacher.

No, you aren't but yes, she is literally 'like some school child who's done something wrong'. I wouldn't say she's made me sad but nothing else he said was wrong in my eyes.

You'd have to take him as your opposite and the strict parent seeing as you accepted him enough to have a baby with him.

When you talk to him you might need to separate out the issues.

It’s good to discuss as parents what kinds of behaviours are appropriate to correct, and how. That’s an ongoing conversation - we had another installment last night about our 15 year old.

I’m not clear exactly what the issue is in the way he speaks to you because I don’t know what you mean by aggressive. If he’s being a bit of a pompous ass, pulling him up on it might be enough but if it feels threatening or frightening or you’d be wary to challenge him that’s a completely different thing.

It’s bad enough for being disrespectful (I’m not minimising that) but if it’s tipping into abuse, it requires a a different reaction.

How has he responded in the past to your challenge or reaction to being spoken to like that?

No he isn't shouting OP. He is projecting his voice which is something teachers learn to do to get children to listen. Actors do it too. He knows what he is doing. Tell him to stop or you will fucking leave. Or better still he can leave and take his silly voice with him

A two year old frustratedly pushing his hand away is a ‘real rejection’ for him?

I suggest he grows the fuck up and learns to control himself. He may not be shouting, but he’s aggressively venting his bad mood at you and a two year old.

Maybe your dd doesn’t like his tone either.

As a one off maybe but a pattern of scrutiny and criticism with little benefit of the doubt or good humour is pretty unhelpful and it sounds rather like things could go that way.

If DH is primed to spot kids running in the corridor, laces undone, shirt untucked, and is on those things almost before they happen, and is the same at home then that is pretty oppressive and heavy handed which will have consequences.

He needs to relax and accept he isn't beyond reproach.

I would say ‘don’t shout at me’ ‘I’m not shouting, I haven’t raised my voice to you, I’m just being clear’ shudder. I would never be with a teacher again.

NATALT (not all teachers are like that!)

she pushed his hand away because she was frustrated, and I know this is a real rejection for him.

Sorry but that's totally ridiculous. He's going to need to be a lot less fragile than that if he is going to be even a half-decent parent. If a little push of the hand from a toddler affects him to this extent, how on earth is he going to deal with behaviour when she's older? It is absolutely not ok for him to use his OTT emotional reactions to perfectly normal childish behaviour as leverage like this. 'Don't push please - it's not kind/nice / it can hurt people', not 'You have upset daddy'.

It's prosody not volume, you can aggressively whisper, just as it's possible to shout without being aggressive.
I think it's fine to tell him to stop treating you like an errant student. I think you need to discuss your parenting styles or you'll end up with a very confused child.
Boundaries are good, aggressively or emotionally manipulatively enforcing them aren't. In theory a psychologist and a teacher should make the best parents....in reality I don't think it works like that😂.
But you both know communication is key.

I’m surprised people don’t think telling a 2 year old that they’re being mean and making daddy sad is really manipulative.

Maybe just describe it as you have here rather than don't shout,

You actually experience it as 'aggressive' 'patronising' 'disrespectful' and 'authoritative'

Whilst yes of course you could go down the route of analysis on who else spoke to.you this way and what it is triggering I'd be more inclined to tell him in those words above that is what you hear so would he reframe or stop!

He doesn't know how to be a parent rather than a teacher. Which is going to destroy his relationship with his daughter, if he's not willing to learn and change. Experiencing the behaviour of a stroppy 2yo as a 'real rejection' is incredibly juvenile and just ridiculous - if he genuinely feels this way then he likely needs some therapy. Call him out on the way he speaks to you every single time, OP.

It sounds a perfectly fine way to parent.

Children do need to learn they behaviours have consequences, i.e being unkind makes others sad, it helps teach empathy.

Children need to learn they should use their words when frustrated, not use their hands.

You however, don't need to learn anything from him, he is not your parent or teacher. He does need to learn how to leave this out with you.

How do you react when he does this, do you adhere to his "instruction. I most certainly would have sat him down and told him he will not belittle me or manage me.

Oh and you don't need to shout to be aggressive or intimidating. Explain that to him also.

This is an excellent point.

For your DD, ‘No, honey, that’s not nice.’

For DH, what’s he keeping in his quiver for the day she tells him she hates him and he’s a big stinky troll?

He may need to find his sense of humour and resilience before you get to that stage.

It is different to teaching- you need to correct your child without breaking the relationship.

Interesting. We both talking to our daughter like that (we are both teachers). To be honest, I don't see any other way if you want to parent and don't want to shout.

I think the issue here is that he is talking to you in the same way. That is something between you and him but I don't think he does anything wrong by talking to your child like that.

How would you like him to talk to you? He chooses his tone as he is holding back raising his voice. My husband does the same- I got used to it as it's his way of communicating. I do raise my voice to him, but he simply wouldn't (even though sometimes I would prefer that way).

I think there are 2 separate issues here - him using his teacher voice on you, and his parenting style with your DD.

You and your DH are both adults, who should be equal partners in your relationship. When he uses his "teacher voice," he is effectively putting you in a child/pupil role and assuming authority to command you to do what he wants. He might not be doing that intentionally/deliberately but that's how it comes across - which is probably why it feels demeaning and patronising?

The other part of that is that shouting isn't the only way someone shows aggression when they are angry. So if he is displaying anger in other ways, like clenching his fists or huffing and puffing, it's neither here nor there that he's not shouting, because he's still behaving aggressively. But if it's more about assuming authority over you, the issue isn't so much the (non) shouting as the power dynamic he imposes on you?

Incidentally, I wonder if you sometimes do something similar to him but with your Psychologist voice? My DH and I both work in a related profession and we found early on that any "therapy speak" in a disagreement almost always makes everything worse. "Is there another way you could think about that?" or "I'm wondering what's getting in the way of us compromising on this?" (or similar) feels very insincere and patronising when you both have vested interests in the outcome. And has the same effect of putting one person in the role of the professional (who knows best) and the other in the role of the client (who needs guiding towards an appropriate solution - I know that's not the dynamic in the therapy room, but it feels that way with a spouse!).

The other issue is his parenting style with your DD. I agree with other posters that "you made Daddy sad" is kinda manipulative if used regularly and other wording might be better. But in terms of tone, it isn't inherently patronising that he uses a non-shouting but corrective tone, because you daughter is a child and he is the parent. So there is inherently a power differential between them in a similar way to between a teacher and pupil. And that's not an inherently bad thing. So no, you don't want him being Strict teacher dad all the time, but judicious use of his teacher voice seems fine to me. There may however be another conversation to have with him about parenting values, and which boundaries you both want to be very firm about, how you hold them etc, as pushing his hand away sounds like it could be something that comes up in various ways multiple times a day with a toddler!

To be honest trust your feelings more than any potential gaslighting or other people's opinion on how you should feel.
My pre schooler sometimes says I'm shouting at him, when I feel like I'm not, but I apologise straight away and reset the conversation. Maybe I'm not shouting in volume but I'm often frustrated or annoyed or rushing etc etc and he's telling me he's picked up on that and he doesn't like it.
If I deny it then that's not going to help our relationship.
The same goes for your partner, you're not going to be able to work together if you are feeling dismissed.
The "being mean, making me sad" line really got to me, that's not him expressing his feelings, that is controlling emotional manipulation. To a child! If he said he got irritated and how are you feeling, that might have started a connection and repaired things, but he didn't.
I'll a big fan of counselling for communication issues, if you're both up for it. Good luck!

Incidentally, there's nothing naughty about a child pushing away anyone's hand if she doesn't want to be touched. It's perfectly appropriate for her to decline a hug or any other affectionate touch if she doesn't want it, and very important for children to learn this at an early age. Your husband's response, albeit (I'm sure) unintentionally, is emotional blackmail.