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Original poster

Going against a court order

36 replies

Kkcc2 · 19/08/2023 05:08

Currently 50/50 child arrangements order in place. We are allowed one full week holiday with our daughter a year. Notice has to be given by 31st jan. Daughters father messaged on that date telling me he’d like her for 10 days in august for a uk holiday (his weekend into a week holiday) I agreed. Messaged again on 29/06 saying he was booking a holiday abroad that evening and wanted to confirm the august dates. To which I agreed (in the best interest of our daughter, as the court would say) I was yet to be confirmed any details. In the order it says as soon as a holiday is booked the parent is to let the other know. He’s told daughter multiple times about weekends away, holiday during half term and it never happened so I assumed he was staying at home for his august ‘holiday time’. Daughter had mentioned going on a plane to turkey but she’s just turned 7 so didn’t want to rely on that information. On pick up day I was given a piece of paper to sign to agree to let my daughter leave the country later that day. If I didn’t sign, he would chance it anyway. I messaged asking for details of this holiday and was sent a message 30 minutes before the plane was taking off to tell me he’s taking her to America. Where do I stand on this? I am happy she’s gone on holiday but America is a bit extreme especially when he didn’t tell me and he reasoning was it was a surprise for her and his partners children? He’s also given me two specific times I can contact her, as long as he is able to find some Wi-Fi. One being an afternoon, the other would be 11.30pm uk time (I have a newborn daughter and a toddler). He’s very to every detail of the court order and he’s the one who put it in place. I just need to know who I can contact and if there’s anything I can get done about this as I’m very uncomfortable with how far she’s gone and the fact I’ve only been told when there’s nothing that could be done about it.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 19/08/2023 05:12

Did the order specify that he must tell you the location on the day he books it?

tbh I’m not sure he has broken the order

DinoRoar14 · 19/08/2023 05:15

It's very unlikely anything at all would come from this. He obtained your permission regarding the extra time, obtained written consent etc.

You know the country and her return date.

What outcome would you look for if you were to retun to court?

Caprisunny · 19/08/2023 05:16

It’s written in the order that the parent has to give the other parent all details of the holiday as soon as it’s booked? Really?

When you say ‘is there anything I can do?’ What do you want to happen? What outcome are you looking for? You have to have an outcome in mind.

I very much doubt any court is going to say he can’t take his child on holiday to America. ‘Too Far’ is your opinion, or are specific distances also detailed in the court order?

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ThickSkinnedSoWhat · 19/08/2023 05:21

I'm not sure I understand the issue. Abroad is abroad. I actually think I'd rather someone took my child to America than Turkey if I'm being honest.

yogasaurus · 19/08/2023 05:29

Not sure what the issue is. Are they going to Florida? Can’t see anyone ruling that this is ‘too extreme’

amylou8 · 19/08/2023 06:24

I'm not sure why you're happy with Turkey but have an issue with the USA. It's not like he's taking her somewhere unsafe.

TossacointoHenryCavill · 19/08/2023 06:56

I think in this situation I’d sign the permission to go abroad thing (put in dates for return etc !) and then ask him nicely for more info about where in America, for your own piece of mind. Promise not to pass any details on to your daughter and stick to it.
If wifi and time zones are likely to be an issue for 2 planned calls, suggest that if they can’t make those times, you expect them to instead facilitate the exchange of short pre-recorded messages instead (2min update about what you’ve been doing) and your daughter makes one for you too.
Basically he isn’t breaking the order but he’s been really quite agressive in his communication with you, which isn’t helpful or respectful.

SequinsandStiIettos · 19/08/2023 07:44

She'll have a fabulous time OP.
Enjoy your time off.
As to the order, God, it all sounds irritating.
When he's back, I'd schedule a coffee (unless he's a complete arse) to discuss better communications going forward.

SummerDayz47 · 19/08/2023 07:50

Depends what is in the order. Some
say that you have to give flight, hotel and destination details.

Honestly im not sure how they would enforce the fact he hasn’t. And if you (try) and remove York emotions it doesn’t impact your own time with your child. The contact thing is a bit shit, but I didn’t speak to my DD when away with dad at this age as she would cry for me for hours and it impacted her time with dad. Out of sight out of mind for her!

JustWhatWeDontNeed · 19/08/2023 07:58

Your order sounds ridiculously prescriptive. Only one full week's holiday per parent per year? That won't be sustainable surely?

Personally I'd want school holidays split in half, alternate Christmases ( if you celebrate or care about christmas) and probably alternate full half terms.

I don't think the USA is "extreme" at all.

Usually the paper you sign would have the details of where they're going though - destination, dates, flight times/numbers. I would expect to have that information in case anything unlikely but awful happened.

If there's no safeguarding issues then just let her enjoy her holiday, but you need to talk about having more clarity in future.

Original poster
Kkcc2 · 19/08/2023 08:30

Yes it is written in the order that as soon as a holiday is confirmed the details need to be passed over. Please also understand everything in this order is was what he asked for. I thought we were going so he could have 50/50 and the days be sorted into a better routine. He however added the smaller details. It’s the fact he’s waited until half hour before take off to tell me where they are going. The paper he asked me to sign only said my name and that I confirm he can take her out of the country. I have no face to face communication with him because he’s very aggressive and constantly starts arguments in front of our daughter. Clearly no, I wouldn’t rather her go to turkey that isn’t the issue. I just think it’s ridiculous you can be taken to court and put through a whole lot of hell for him to go against the things he’s asked to be put in an order.

OP posts:
TossacointoHenryCavill · 19/08/2023 08:35

He’s a dick. Parental permission letters for holidays would normally have dates on. I’d always add an extra day on in case of flight delays but no details at all is shoddy. Is his partner nice? Or will he be more civil if you get communication to mostly go through someone else (your Dad or partner maybe?).

CoffeeBean5 · 19/08/2023 08:48

I bet she will have a fabulous time! Is she going to Disney World in Florida? This will be a lovely break for her considering she has 2 baby half siblings at home. I was 8 when my youngest brother was born. He is a full sibling and my other sibling and I found it hard that he had all our parents' attention. I imagine it will be harder for her with 2 half siblings. As long as your ex tells you when they're off the plane and boarding the plane and some updates throughout the day then I don't see any issues.

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

Caprisunny · 19/08/2023 09:49

Kkcc2 · 19/08/2023 08:30

Yes it is written in the order that as soon as a holiday is confirmed the details need to be passed over. Please also understand everything in this order is was what he asked for. I thought we were going so he could have 50/50 and the days be sorted into a better routine. He however added the smaller details. It’s the fact he’s waited until half hour before take off to tell me where they are going. The paper he asked me to sign only said my name and that I confirm he can take her out of the country. I have no face to face communication with him because he’s very aggressive and constantly starts arguments in front of our daughter. Clearly no, I wouldn’t rather her go to turkey that isn’t the issue. I just think it’s ridiculous you can be taken to court and put through a whole lot of hell for him to go against the things he’s asked to be put in an order.

I agree. It is ridiculous that he added so much detail then isn’t abiding by it.

So is the outcome that you want to go back to court and have it relaxed? And those details removed?

If so, I can see why you would. But you would need legal advice.

Caprisunny · 19/08/2023 09:50

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

If you were in this situation you wouldn’t have a choice.

Doyoumind · 19/08/2023 10:02

He added that detail so he would always know what you're doing and he knew he wouldn't and didn't need to tell you his plans if he didn't want to.

There's nothing you can do to enforce it.

He's a dick. You can put something in writing to him to say he's breaching the order and next time you expect him to stick to it, and you could even get your solicitor to send the letter but from a legal perspective there's nothing more you can really do. The letter would just be a record in case there's any more serious breach in the future.

Doyoumind · 19/08/2023 10:05

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

If you literally went to court to get that point removed or to vary that specific element only, I think the court would take a dim view.

Notamum12345577 · 19/08/2023 10:11

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

So in this situation, you wouldn’t take your daughter halfway across the world without her dad? It’s the same thing.

yogasaurus · 19/08/2023 10:23

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

What on earth makes you think this variation would be granted?

Thankfully, it isn’t just what the DM wants nowadays. DF’s can take their children places too

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2023 11:04

I get it - he’s an assh^*e

don’t let him live rent free in your head

BudgetBuster · 19/08/2023 11:59

I don't think anything can be done because you signed the form. You signed it not knowing the details so a court would basically say you had no issues at that point in time and thus broke the order yourself (I.e. you knew they were going abroad and were fine e not knowing where in advance of signing). All you can do is tell him in writing that unless he abides by the court order and provides all necessary information you will not be agreeing in future. A court is going to ask you why you didn't ask him to confirm location etc when he contacted you saying he was booking something abroad - again you just agreed not knowing anything.

Chickpea17 · 19/08/2023 12:06

AlfietheSchnauzer · 19/08/2023 09:35

I would've taken my child home again. No way would she be crossing the world without me! That situation won't ever happen with my child but if it did, I'd be straight back to court for a variation to the order.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Kids are entitled to time away with their dads too.

Shopper727 · 19/08/2023 12:07

Why didn’t he just tell you, seems odd.
my kids have been to America with their dad, loved it going back next year but I know where etc they FaceTime me etc he needs to be more open sounds quite bizarre the way he’s gone about things so I’d make sure that didn’t happen again

lljkk · 19/08/2023 12:29

I have no face to face communication with him because he’s very aggressive and constantly starts arguments in front of our daughter.

I wondered if you could have a group chat situation set up, say a WhatsApp that you each also have a relative on (his mum & your dad say), so there is a publicness to your comms. Then you could simply say on the WhatsApp : "Tom, Can you please confirm the pickup & drop off times & dates & destination for Zoe's summer holiday with you? "

Then you both have a "witness" to the communication and you have a means to communicate safely.

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