How difficult is it for high achieving academic parents to relax and not push their children?

[spokette]

I ask because DH has already mapped out the degree courses (Maths)and universities (Oxbridge) that DTS will be attending and they are only 3years and 11 months.

DH and I both have PhDs in science subjects and DH recently achieved an MBA with distinction.

DTS start school in September and I want them to thrive in terms of their social development as well as academically. I know that DH wants this too but he wants them to be top of the class. He already has plans in place to tutor them in maths himself. He means well but I think he needs to accept that DTS have to develop at their own pace and they may not be scientifically inclined - they maybe arty!

Spokette - what is he actually trying to achieve? It sounds as though he is trying to live his life through his children or that he thinks his success will be measured by what his children achieve......

What a shame - I hope you manage to turn his view around otherwise he will probably end up with a situation similar to ours:

offspring who will always resent him and are permanently unhappy, as they will never feel as though they are worthy;

offspring who rebel and do something to piss him off instead of what they really want to do, the scary thing is you don't know what that might be.......in my case it was men and drugs

My middle brother is also unhappy although he did get a degree to please Dad, he wishes he hadn't bothered as he would have been far happier in a vocational trade. My younger brother is the only one who is genuinely happy in his life choices and that is because Dad had learnt his lesson on the two of us and left him alone - he is also financially successful

Exactly Spokette. Some people get their rush or 'flow' from physical or tactile work. They enjoy doing things with their hands.

Plumbing and building can be hard trades I know that mine and dh's parents did this because they didn't have the opportunity ro do much else. Unfortunately our parents came from very poor backgrounds where the main aim was people to get out of poverty regardless of what the individual wanted so both my father and my FIL took whatever work they could find.

For my father it fitted his personality better, he liked his job most of the time and it suited him. On the other hand my FIL but didn't really have a love of it. He did however have a love of carpentry and has spent most of his retirement making the most beautiful furniture you can imagine in a tiny shed in his garden.

We are so lucky to live in a time where we do have more opportunities and I think being a plumber or builder can be a great job if it gives satisfaction to the person doing it.

Dh though is a much more cerebral person and from young childhood it was obvious that the 'practical' route was not for him. TBH we could do with a lot more 'practical' in this house so a son who is a builder or plumber would be incredibly useful

"if your DCs understand that they need straight As for certain professions, then presumably if they actually (a) wanted to follow those professions and (b) had enough natural talent, then they will do the work themselves."

Exactly. If they want to study medicine for example, I will point out to them what they need to do to stand a chance of getting into medical school. However, forcing them to study something that they have no interest in is only going to turn them off education, imo.

I agree

We (Dh and I are both scientists by inclination, education, and I by profession, DH is a polymath and very gifted at history in addition) do find it hard to rein in thoughts of what DS might achieve, esp given that we have more resources to give him than our parents did.

I think it can be tricky as your natural inclination as a parent can be to want your children to have better than you had, and if you are a high flyer this is asking a lot.

The joke in this household is that we'll be happy if he does anything except studies English.

Academic, "high-achieving" parents here too - multiple degrees between us, and DP is a high-flying boffin. I don't think we're pushy, except environmentally IYSWIM - our house is full of books, and because of our own interests we are more likely to encourage sciency and bookish interests - but only because that's what we happen to talk about and have around. As others have said I want DS to be happy and find out for himself what makes him tick and what he wants to do.

I do sometimes think that if he turns out to be academic, the advantage is that me and DP will be able to relate to that and be in a position to help more. If he's into football or wants to be a businessman or whatever, we'll be a bit clueless and less well able to relate to it (though I'd do my best) - but then that might have its advantages for DS, in that he'd be ploughing his own furrow and not comparing himself to his parents. I know DP compares himself to his dad who became a professor at a very young age.

That's very true - my youngest dd wants to be a vet so I have explained to her what that will entail workwise and she is under no illusions and does work very hard. However, the choice of profession came from her and there is no pressure from us (although I will secretly be dead chuffed obviously).
Oldest dd hasn't a clue but knows it's up to her, I don't mind what she does as long as she does something.

What, pray, is wrong with studying English?

At this stage I do think he is going a bit OTT and jumping the gun. Their primary years, whilst important in terms of learning the basics, are, imo, more about socialising and learning to work with others, etc.

Once the dcs get to secondary school, then a healthy dose of "guidance" is pretty crucial. DS1 has just had to choose his GCSE options and, whilst we didn't push him in a particular direction, we did show a great deal of interest and helped him with researching his options, etc. We have also been stressing to him the importance of working hard, what good qualifications will give you in terms of career options, etc.

I do think it is vitally important for parents to get involved in their dcs' education, but you have to draw a line at pushing them in a direction that you want them to go in but perhaps they don't.

Academic success has made life easier for DH and me than it has been for our parents. So to be completely honest, I would like my children to be similarly, if not more, successful.

Naturally I also want them to be happy and fulfilled in what they do.

I don't think extra tuition is going to make them maths prodigies though.

I guess I am an academic mother having a first and a masters and studying for a Phd but have done it all differently being expelled from school at 16 and doing it in the evenings and paying for it all myself.

My kids know this and watch me studying. I am accepting of where they are now so long as culturally they stay abreast of things and read and go to the theatre and classical music etc. I have a cultural plan for each year but alongside shakespeare I include glastonbury.

I dont mind if they dont do well but they have to do as well as they are capable of which, unfortunately being very bright means I think they should be always top!

Saying that if any of them wanted to drop out and be entrepreneurs and keep me in luxury I wouldnt say no. I have drawn the line at my eldest dd trying out for the royal ballet school on purely snobby academic lines as she is top of her class at our grammar school and I am sure the academic standard of white lodge is pants.She may want to be Darcey Bussel but there is a long way to go and anything might happen and if she doesnt have a solid educational background it may be a disaster.

Hmmm, this is a difficult one, I think. I am not super academic, but I did well at school and went to Uni. I guess I would be disappointed if my children didn't wish to have some kind of further education, just because I loved it so much, learned to stand on my own two feet, enjoyed my course and met wonderful friends. And if I'm honest, I do have a few happy (unrealistic) daydreams about what the dcs might be in the future, and those dreams would require them to have some kind of further education. But I will not push, and I hope that when my dreams are proved entirely wrong for them, I will let them go with good grace .

I want the twins to do well but there is a big difference between providing support as well as encouragement and imposing your will and aspirations on them.

gf, how do you know she is top of her class? (Just curious...)

Quattro - just that everyone that we have known who did english were really badly read, and never read for pleasure.

Equally, I'd not be terribly enthused about him doing Astrophysics as its a bit pointless - v v hard mathematically, but a bit of a Mc degree in that you never get to use it.

I thought the point of having a higher degree was that you were already getting all that fun for yourself and wouldn't need to live vicariously through your children.

If I want more fame and glory, I can always go and write a bigger and better book. Seems unfair to expect dcs to do it for me. [hmmm]

And as for mapping out anybody else's lives for them- strikes me as downright greedy. We're all entitled to one life each.

Yeah, watch that tendency, eh? Mum (PHD in Psych) and Dad (Barrister)- they had it all mapped out. DB and I are crippled by hideous anxiety disorders, and find any academic endeavour excruciating. They really sucked all the joy out of learning because it became all about them, and gaining their approval.

Needless to say, at 28 I still don't have a degree. At 34 DB struggled desperately to get an ordinary degree (couldn't hack it all the way to honours) in Computing from a less than prestigious University.

So just bear in mind you might be shooting yourself in the foot with this "academic career mapping", and try to ease off on the pressure there! I suggest you read some John Holt while you're at it.

You obviously have a well-balanced perspective, Spokette.
DH & I are academic high achievers, too. Plus, my 2 school-age children are currently top of the class and I am a little nervous how this may skew our expectations of the next 2 children.
At the same time, I have relatives who have literally been deadbeats: homeless drug addicts, thieving or prostituting. Not even because they were too thick to do otherwise, but because they were messed up emotionally.
At least the family exposure means I have a pretty grounded idea of what makes up "success" in life. I may be a bit disappointed if DC 'only' become sheet metal workers, but if they're otherwise responsible and nice people, who would I be to complain?? It could be so much worse.

Pinning too high hopes on kids is unfair, they are what they are. Mind, the odds are your DC will fight their own corner on this one, anyway. In time they'll make it clear they don't exist just to fulfill their parents' expectations.

"I want the twins to do well but there is a big difference between providing support as well as encouragement and imposing your will and aspirations on them."

Spokette - I completely agree. But I suspect that as your twins progress through school and have the opportunity to develop their natural talents and demonstrate their new skills that your intelligent husband will realise this too and let them pursue their own path in life, whatever that may be.

Both dh and I went to Oxford.

We both couldn't really give stuff about academic achievements. Our academic achievements haven't contributed to happiness at all, nor do we equate academics with intelligence.

Anyway nothing like having a firstborn with severe learning disabilities to give some perspective.

lazycow will you come and be my mummy please?

I am NOT academic, but I do find myself, when ds1 says "I'm going to be a builder!" adding on hastily "Or an architect! That would be fun!"

I think this is all quite absurdtbh. Let them just be children will they have the chance, not extra tutoring in subjects and pressure at the age of three. They probably will excell academically as you obviously both have, BUT at the end of the day does it really matter in the wider picture. Surely to be all rounded, sound, happy, conteneted children and adults is far more important.
Also bearing in mind the difficulties many highly pressurised children suffer from, ie eating disorders, higher suicide rates etc. PLEASE just let them enjoy thier childhood, and learn how to live

Oh no Colditz not an architect!

My exh trained to be an architect and it does NOT engender nice feelings in me, so maybe I'd better add architect to 'serious criminal, drug addict and BNP member as possible 'disappointing' careers for ds

Fortunately DH will be perfectly happy if DS (3) just plays rugby for England (he doesn't seem to have decided yet which position will be best, although he has devoted some thought to the question ).

I am a bit at the OP.

Assume that DC are really bright, love maths, get the Oxbridge degree etc, what will this actually do for them? Will it make them superhappy/superhealthy? I don't get it, it seems to me in reality all it will do is to give DH something to gloat about. People who have maths degrees from Oxbridge are still human beings who face the same things in life as everyone else. You don't gain immortality if you graduate in maths from Oxbridge!

Also wanted to say, if that's what the DC want to achieve, then fine, support them in doing so. However, if that is what they want to do, the weight of expectation and pressure from your DH will be totally intolerable and detract from the achievement/take all the enjoyment from it. What if they get an offer from Oxbridge and drop and A level grade? Is life over? Should they commit suicide? I know that sounds dramatic, but people do it - people who kill themselves over academic achievement are usually high achievers under pressure.

Alternatively, what if the DC hate maths. Your DH's attitude could make them feel like failures their whole lives, even if they are extremely successful in another field.

These are crazy desires for DC and your DH needs to think through the consequences a bit more fully. For a supposedly "intelligent" person, your DH's views are pretty stupid.