Please help my desperate friend - losing the plot due to disrupted sleep!

[DaphneHarvey]

In brief: my dear friend, mum of 3 boys, has youngest ds aged 9 months who won't sleep for longer than 3 hours at a stretch. She is reluctant to try controlled crying because of the older two (they live in a small house, so all quite close to each other) - is afraid the crying will wake the older two up.

But she is beside herself. Am so worried about her. She's always been an extremely positive, cheerful sort, her older two boys are really lovely, but she fessed up to me recently that she feels at the end of her tether and her DH has had to take time off work to help her get kids to school etc.

She is desperate. How can I help her? WWYD in her situation?

personally I couldn't do CC. I think it's horrible. a baby needs to know that when he needs comfort his mummy is there.

what is he actually doing? is he waking, then feeding to sleep? or is he up for ages when he wakes in the night?
if he is feeding back to sleep then has she considered co-sleeping?

There are other sleep-training methods that are kinder than CC imo.

He is in the room next to hers. At some point in the night he ends up in bed with them. She says the night wakings are all such a blur sometimes she doesn't really know what's happened. She isn't against the idea of co-sleeping, as such, and that's what they often end up doing. Its just the constant waking and disruption that is doing her poor head in. Her older two are up by 6.30am and she never gets her head down before 11pm for the last night feed then baby wakes her up again at least twice in the night. She is becoming very very fed up.

I feel her pain!! I haven't slept solidly through the night for a year now!

DD (almost 10 weeks) has just started to wake up for feeds every four hours again (it used to be every three hours) which is doing my head in.

No advice but just tea and sympathy.

I disagree, a baby of 9 months needs to begin to cope with independence from his mother now that his feeding needs are not near constant. He also needs a mother that can cope and function during the day. If the mother in this case is beginning to feel that she cannot cope then the ideal world (whatever one is going to deem that to be) has been left farbehind.

What this family needs is sleep. Sleep for the parents, the children and the baby!

Controlled crying emphasises the fact that the child's parents are there and always there if done sensitively. There are alternatives such as Gradual Retreat which I sometimes use when sleep training but CC is effective, fast, and firmly sets boundaries that every family needs in order to survive.

If the family is losing income due to unpaid leave by the father (?are they?!) then could the funds be put towards using a night nanny for respite or even a sleep trainer. There are many people who now offer this service either independently, like myself, or through the larger agencies.

I have a link somewhere to tips on CC and Gradual retreat. Will hunt down after work tomorrow.

HTH!

hmm yes but you're clearly biased if you make money by doing that sort of thing.

it all depends on what the mother is happiest doing, and if she doesn't like CC then there is no point people saying she ought to.
As I said, there are nicer ways of sleep training. I'd be tempted to firstly try being with him but not feeding him. or offering him a cup of water instead and settling him back in his own bed.
then they can work on cutting that down.

Yes and no. I say this because although my personal preference is CC, I meet with a family and discuss a range of options for tackling the problem. Very often they choose CC, but not always. I don't solely use CC as my method so have no financial bias in that way, it is just what tends to give me best success rates.

I still think that if sleep is needed then you do what it takes..!

yes, I suppose you do. I just could never leave my baby to cry, and I don't think that having "independence" comes into it. they're far too young to "learn" to be independent from their mother at 9 months IMO. and I can't see how teaching a child not to cry because no-one will come to them is in any way a helpful thing to do.
but that's just my personal opinion. and I am sure there are plenty of people on MN who would say the opposite

I am not saying that this mother shouldn't sleep train her child at all- clearly she needs her sleep and needs to be able to function properly. just that for some people a much gentler method is needed

Indeed there have been many debates on the subject! What this mother needs is support - whether that's a night or two respite or respite combined with 'training' on how to achieve an independently sleeping, self settling baby - she needs support and time te de-fuddle her brain so she can cope. Could you do the night shift for her?!

I don't see why not. I am already up every 2 hrs with ds2 lol

yes, tell your friend what she really needs is a weekend spa break

dividedself, do you have any advice for sleep training a four and half month old? Can you do CC that early? My ds wakes every hour and has never slept for longer than two hours in a row. Have tried everything I can think of. Read all the books, and been as methodical and thoughtful as I can. I am now reaching exhaustion point and have begun to feel dizzy at times during the day. I have a two year old to look after and like Daphne's friend my DH is having to take time off work to get us through this. My ds refuses to take a bottle, we have tried for last two weeks with every different type of teat, formula, expressed milk etc, so there's not even the luxury of a night's sleep while DH feeds him. I think it may be too early for CC, but I don't think you can judge anyone for wanting to try it especially when you've reached the point of not being in a fit state to look after another of your children as a consequence of the constant night waking.

I have done CC with DD1 and DD2. After CC DD1 was going to sleep happily by herself from 3mo, no typo. I didnt get round to 'training' DD2 till very much later and she is still being bfed to sleep and waking during the night. I wish I'd done CC with her when she was much younger.(She's 17 mo).
If done properly CC does just what dividedself says - the child realises that you are going to keep coming back in to them but that is it. Obviously if you suspect there is something wrong or the child is ill you act accordingly.
I think it is telling that the people who are most against CC are the ones who've never tried it or have only tried it with an older baby or have obviously not perservered past the first (admitedly difficult) night.
Your friend's other DC will be disturbed for only a few nights and the whole family will benefit once the baby is sleeping better. My DDs share a room and DD1 4.5yo often doesn't wake at all when DD2 wakes up and cries. Your friend could try CC starting on a friday or over a holiday weekend so not too many school nights are included.

fingerwoman - "teaching a child not to cry because no-one will come to them"

That's not controlled crying, that's crying it out!
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!

that's debatable shitemum.
no need to shout either. we're all being perfectly civil here so far, and respecting other people's opinions

Thanks shitemum.

I am so with the sometimes apparently willful misconception about CC.

My daughter is older than the child mentioned in the OP (she is 16mo) and I have done some CC with her recently because she has gone from being a champion sleeper to waking 3 or more times a night. I go in, check she is ok, cuddle her, put her back in her bed and then do the CC routine.

She needs to learn that nighttime is not playtime. There are gentle ways to teach this and CC is not about just leaving them for hours.

Also, in answer to the OP, can she get earplugs for the older boys? it doesn't usually take that long and they all need to get over this horrible patch.

and there are other methods of sleep training that don't involve leaving a child to cry for any period of time.
cc is not the only option

I am not misconceived about CC either.
I just don't believe it is very good for a baby to be left to cry, even if you think they know you will come back.
do you honestly think a little baby has the capacity to understand that when you go you will always reappear??? because I don't.

as I have said though, that's just my personal opinion.
what I think is really telling is just how defensive people who have used CC get. no?

anyway, this really isn't the thread for a big debate on CC. that doesn't actually help the OP

Sorry about the shouting, margo put it more politely with her 'bored smiley'.

I know there are other methods that don't involve crying but they haven't worked for us and I am a very crap mother when I havent had enough sleep. I like to fix situations as fast as I can rather than let them drag on for months or years to the detriment of all concerned.

Girds loins for new attempt at CC starting...well, very soon, yes. Just have to drop the bfeeding to sleep nonsense first, that's all...should be a breeze. Gulp.

Whatever she does - tell her to go to bed earlier. I really mean it. I went through a phase where I was getting 2-3 hours sleep a night because of ds1 (severely autistic). At the time I had a counsellor and we talked it through and that was actually the only solution. It will give her more energy to sort it out.

Anyway, Daphne, maybe pratical help is needed, can you take her kids off her hands for a few hours so she can rest? Or spend an evening or two supporting her while she tries cc? When you're that tired an hour or two off during the day are very welcome.

My friend would be grateful to hear your "gentler" methods fingerwoman. How many children do you have? Do you need to do this every day: get up at 6.30am, get two ds's ready for school and make packed lunches whilst also seeing to 9 month old, walk dcs to school and nursery at 8.45am. Get home 9.15am, let baby nap. Get baby up and walk back to school to collect DS2 from nursery at 11.30am. Give DS2 lunch and amuse him and baby and do chores until time to walk back to school at 3.15pm. Collect DS1 from school, go home, look after them all, do homework or have schoolfriends round for DS1 to play with, cook tea for DS's and do baby-led weaning type foods for baby and prepare something for her and DH, clear up. DH gets home at 6.30, sometimes later. Bath all 3 with DH, get them to bed for 7.30pm. Cook and eat dinner with DH. Do chores. Go to bed at 10pm. Wake up for late feed at 11.30pm. Wake up at 2am and 4am in the night to see to baby. Get up at 6.30am. Do the whole routine again. Every day, more or less, for the past 9 months.

That's her life and tbh I can see why she is beginning to unravel and I am so worried about her. She is becoming depressed infront of me.

Goodness that sounds like my life!

Can her dh cook dinner and she go to bed straight afterwards- that's what we do when I'm really tired.

Can she get a childminder to pick up DS2 and take him for a couple of hours so she doesnt have to go to school 3 times a day?

Or get someone to come in for part of the time between DS2's lunch and 3.15pm so she can sleep or do something by herself?

The other thing I do is catch up at weekends. So dh gets up at 7am, with the 3 boys, I stay in bed until 8am /8.30am