Please help my desperate friend - losing the plot due to disrupted sleep!

[DaphneHarvey]

In brief: my dear friend, mum of 3 boys, has youngest ds aged 9 months who won't sleep for longer than 3 hours at a stretch. She is reluctant to try controlled crying because of the older two (they live in a small house, so all quite close to each other) - is afraid the crying will wake the older two up.

But she is beside herself. Am so worried about her. She's always been an extremely positive, cheerful sort, her older two boys are really lovely, but she fessed up to me recently that she feels at the end of her tether and her DH has had to take time off work to help her get kids to school etc.

She is desperate. How can I help her? WWYD in her situation?

that sounds like my life too. and my baby is older than 9 months.

i often spend weekends sleeping and dh takes the kids so that i get some rest.
and i've had a couple of days at a spa so that i can just get away from it all.

i so do feel for yr friend. let her know she's not the only one.

I have 2 boys. a 3 yr old and a 3.5month old.
thankfully I am spared the super-early morning, but as I mentioned I am up every 2 hours at least in the night with the smaller one.

On a practical note can her DH help her in the evenings by:
getting boys' clothes laid out ready
making packed lunches for the next day
helping with bedtime
she also ought to sleep when the baby has his morning nap and the others are out

for gentler sleep training methods she could try pick up put down PU/PD

pr take a look at Pantley's no cry sleep solution. I just did a search on here and there are a lot of threads about it- apparently v. succesful

Fingerwoman - I appreciate your pov - but you might expect to be up every two hours with a 3.5month old. A 9 month old though? And your 3 year old isn't at school yet, so presumably you don't have the getting up deadlines?

I have offered to have her DS2 here to play with my DS (same age) between end of nursery and school pick up time. But friend can only sleep then if DB chooses to!
Atm he seems to need to sleep 10am to 11.30am (because not sleeping in the night, I suppose) but friend, exhausted as she is, not inclined to try and get her head down at that time. Seems to me the most unlikely time of day an adult could ever get a nap. Besides, she has washing and cleaning for a family of 5 to do.

Feel so for her. The baby is gorgeous. Everybody loves him, he is a delight. But she is getting fed up with seeing so much of him in the wee small hours.

he is at pre-school, so yes we do have school runs to do

I am not sure what my situation has to do with it though?
I've just said that I don't agree with CC. not at any age. that's my personal preference, as I ahve already stated.
you also said that she is reluctant to try CC.
so I have offered some IMO nicer alternatives

and there is no reason why PU/PD or no-cry are less effective than CC either. so don't see the issue?

I have lived with deadlines and those sorts of hours for years (ds1 8- he's the big problem, ds2 6 (never wakes) ds3 3- is waking at the moment). Really its a case of finding extra sleep where you can- and getting to bed earlier (by getting dh to do cooking/tidying up) and also grabbing an extra hour at the weekend when needed.

Also found having the children in bed with me to be helpful. Is a major pain that suddenly ds1 won't come into bed with me when he wakes and I have been much tireder after his latest escapades as a result.

I found PU/PD more upsetting for my DD than CC. She just found the endless interaction then sudden stopping really confusing and upsetting and it enraged her. She ended up crying for hours and was inconsolable. Not the same for every child but this is what happened with my child.

That's why I get annoyed about the assertion that CC is horrible and it's teaching a child that no one will come to them.

It depends on the child but for my child, CC was easier and better than fingerwoman's "gentler" methods.

And by the way fingerwoman, if I described a childcare method you used "horrible" you'd be annoyed too. Not defensive. Annoyed.

no, i'd probably think, oh someone has a differing opinion to me. and if I felt I was doing the absolute best for my child I wouldn't care what other people thought.
I didn't say "it is horrible" I said I THINK it is horrible.
there is a big difference.

but I am not going to end up having a big argument over CC on here. I've already said that this isn't really the thread for it, and it isn't helpful to the OP.

I've given my opinion on what I'd do in the situation, which is what the OP asked for.

She could try a sort of 'controlled response' thing I did with both my two. I always went in, when I heard them getting distressed. I didn't time this - babies react on their own time table, not Baby Guru's - but neither did I go running in at the slightest pissed off squeak. I would go in at the very first sign the baby was actually getting upset, because it's impossible to settle a hysterical baby and mean to make them that way, but would ignore that tired moany crying they do when they are actually on their way to dropping off (that "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Oooohhhhhhhhhhhh. Errrrrrrrrr errrrrr errrrrrr" crying - know what I mean?)

I tried Pu/PD and actually Ds1 was dreadfully upset by it - clinging to my clothes when he felt me leaning towards the cot. It really was kinder not to ever lift him out of the cot to comfort him, but for me to lean in.

OK is this better:

"I think that the ways fingerwoman treats her children are horrible"...make you feel any happier?

I think you overstated your case from a position of not really knowing how CC works. Fair enough but moderated language would be preferable.

I Know exactly how CC works actually.

and no, if you said that I wouldn't give a toss.
Why on earth would I care if someone I don't know, have never met, am not likely to meet, and who clearly parents in a completely different way to me doesn't like how I parent my children????
why would that matter to me???

I do think CC is horrible. In fact, I may well go as far as to say I think it borders on abusive. and I am not going to pretend I don't feel strongly about it just because other people do it.

this is the last I will say on the matter. because as I have pointed out several times already I really don't wish to have an argument about CC on this thread.
do you really think it's appropriate?

controlled crying and how it can damage babies' brains

I did CC with dd2 at 12 weeks. She was fed, winded, clean bum and happy (but sleepy) when we did it the first night. She went down no bother, cried and we checked and went in every 1-2 minutes...I think the total time she cried was for about 30 mins. Next night was 15, next night was 5 and after that she went down without a peep. Tbh prev to this she had always cried at this time of night anyway, as she was tired!

She is now 11 months, sleeps 7-7 and has never had a disturbed nights sleep since 12 weeks. She does not think that I have abandoned her as in the day if she cries I am there in an instant.

She actually loves going to bed - dp reads her a story with funny voices, dd squeals with laughter and then he leaves the room and we dont hear a peep from her till 7am!!

She is thriving, eats practically everything you give her and is full of fun - which I out down to having a good nights sleep! Cant be anything wrong with that surely??

I hate CC and couldn't do it.

I'd say to your friend, put the baby straight in with her in bed at night, then surely they'd all get a bit of sleep?

nightmare isn't it!

Jesus fingerwoman, talk about digging yourself into a hole.

I doubt your parenting style differs very much from mine if it's loving and gentle and kind.

What does differ is your use of language - you find it ok to say a method I have used which caused far less upset than other methods is abusive. Not on.

Hi Daphne,
I've just spotted this thread
Referring to your post on Sun 10-Feb-08 22:56:28
I have 9 children. I have done the routine you describe for several years.
Tell your friend that for the time being she must grab her sleep where she can. The rest will begin to fall into place once she isn't quite so tired.

"Get home 9.15am, let baby nap. "

How long does the baby nap for. If she has to wake baby up to do the nursery pickup at 11:30 that's great. Tell her to go to sleep for at least an hour. Set the alarm so that she is sure to wake up (if the baby doesn't wake her first). It's difficult to start with but she will nod off with practice.

If she can't manage the sleep in the morning due to baby not sleeping or something else then do the chores then and use the afternoon to try and nap. Pick up nursery child and if he needs a nap and the baby falls asleep on the way back - there's another opportunity to get her head down.

Drop bathing the children every night.
Drop doing the chores (apart from basics, eg if you can't face a sink full of pots in the morning).

If the children are all in bed for 7:30 then for a couple of nights get herself off to bed by 8:30/9pm or as soon as tea is cleared away. Be disciplined about it. She needs the sleep.

If she's in bed for 9pm latest then by 11:30 she's already had around 2 and half hours sleep.

I found it easier to think of my day as a 24hr cycle. Sleep when you can regardless of whether it's day or night. It passes but you need to get through it at the time.

Hope things improve for your friend soon.

Thanks all for your replies. Sorry not said so sooner, can't get on Mumsnet every day.

As mum of two myself (as it happens, same ages as her oldest two, I just didn't want to have a third child) I can only imagine what she's going through with this new non-sleeping baby.

I have done controlled crying myself with two dcs and am happy with my conscience. She is reluctant, and I respect her pov. She is hoping for an alternative. As was I when I started this thread on her behalf.

Am not sure what you are supposed to do, though, when trying to teach your baby that he/she doesn't need a nipple in his/her mouth in order to sleep.

Can understand why, from the baby's pov that pick up/put down, is more upsetting than just the presence of a parent hearby. Oh I don't know. Thanks for your input. Hate to see my friend so miserable. Will just continue to offer friendly shoulder and help with her older children.

DH, you can do a diff version of PU/PD, it's on the thread I linked to (i think)
pat/shush which works very well.
or, as I say the ELizabeth Pantley no-cry sleep solution which I know quite a few people have used and really raved about

margoandjerry- i don't think I am digging myself into a hole. I have expressed my opinion. how else could I say how much I dislike CC? I have used a word which accurately describes how I view it. If you don't like the fact that I don't like it that's really not my problem

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Herewegoround - just curious, why couldn't you have early nights when your dh was away? I know when my dh worked away I had some of my really early nights. As soon as the children were settled, I locked up and went to bed.

CC need not be painful or stressful (btw fingerwoman your link didn't work!).

I had the problem with ds1 when he was around 5 months old. He had started to sleep through the night at around 4 months, but then started to wake up whenever he lost his dummy, so we realised that we had to wean him off the dummy. (He had one initially because it helped to soothe his ferocious colic).

I read up about CC (brilliant book called 'How to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems) and planned how and when we were going to do it. We started on Thursday and by Sunday he was sleeping through the night. The longest he ever cried was 5 minutes.

It was much, much easier than I thought it was going to be, and HWGRTMB's HV is absolutely right - it was cries of anger/frustration not discomfort/distress.

I can understand why people don't like it, and I can understand why people may not wish to do it - but I would advise your friend to read up about it (along with other methods) and choose something - and do something quickly, otherwise she will unravel even further.

And it also sounds from your post as if her DH isn't pulling his weight - sorry if that isn't true, but it does sound as if she takes on the whole burden whereas he could be doing more - cooking dinner, the chores in the evening, making packed lunches, doing the dishes, etc.

Good luck to her!

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