I think my 8-year-old ds might be depreseed - can anyone help???

[overthehill]

My ds is a lovely boy, but he's so lacking in self-esteem and self-confidence, and he's really going through a bad phase at the moment. He flies off the handle really easily, says there's no point in living and he wants to die, bashes his head against the floor/wall etc and shuts himself in his room with all the lights turned out as he says that everything is black. He's very bright but doesn't believe this, thinks he's too fat and ugly (which he's not) and hates feeling an oddball (he doesn't like sport & his mind works on a different level from your average 8-year-old). He has a few friends, but the friendships always seem very fragile, and he doesn't really fit in and is basically very lonely, I think. He has a love-hate relationship with his big sister (which is normal!). However, he's always been able to build up really good relationships with adults and has got on well with a succession of teachers, although he's often in trouble at school. He has been referred to a behaviour support person & did also see the school counsellor, so they've tried their best, but his basic problems remain.

I feel really scared because of his talk of wanting to die (which has been a theme for 3 years at least) but also very sad that he's obviously so unhappy and inadequate that it's because I've been too critical and not given him enough positives.

I felt so desperate this evening that I was thinking of taking him to our GP, but my dh thinks that would be a really bad idea as it would only reinforce his feeling that there's something wrong with him, and he's suggesting that if I'm adamant about going, I should go on my own.

Sorry this is so long, but I'd really appreciate any words of wisdom, and thanks in advance.

It sounds like a shame that they are doing less together. Maybe this is making him a little sad. Is there a climbing wall near where you live? these are good for bonding and confidence. There may be a rock climbing club if you are yorkshire, I used to do this, it's not like a real sport, it's more logic as you have to think about where you are putting your feet and hands. They could do this together. Friends partner sounds quite interesting, this'll help. If he's good at chess I would ask him about the club again, give him a bit of encouragement to join. It would boost his self esteem if he found something he was really good at and did something with it. Is there a youth orchestra where you live? Have you suggested that they do a play? you could set aside an evening every month so that they could entertain you and your husband, maybe drag the grandparents into it. They used to do this before developing the evil tv. I have movie afternoons with Joe. We snuggle up, get some munchies and watch star wars or harry potter. He likes doing this, it's good to just forget about everything and just be together. Family games (monopoly, scrabble, cludo) are good for bonding. Top trumps are better and easier to use than ugioh cards. Can get a variety, dinosaurs, planets, harry potter, star wars. They are more information facts then anything else.

Could try and grow plants, sweet peas are lovely but quite hard to grow so they'll be a challenge.

They've actually got a climbing wall at school, which dd used to talk about, but he doesn't; maybe I'll ask him about that. Neither of them is very athletic, but dd had a wonderful time on her Year 6 (especially) and 7 school outward bound weeks, much to our surprise really, so perhaps that's another idea for holiday times. He's also toyed with going to some kind of martial arts club, but it's fitting all these things in that can be a problem.

He can't actually play chess yet - that something else that I was hoping that dh would get round to doing with him - so maybe he's more realistic & realises that won't happen so has given up any thought of joining the chess club. We do play board games, although it's not something we've done so much of recently. He loves Monopoly but I'm afraid is in a minority of one as it just goes on for ever!

I think plays may be a thing of the past as dd feels it's too babyish to use dollies & ds will now say it's too girly, but they do make videos using dd's digital camera & animations using her webcam (a Christmas present requested by her) & some animation software, which also means that they can add a soundtrack including music.

a wall outside school would encourage them to work together and bond. Martial arts are good for boys, there are lots of clubs, you have to find one that gives alot of praise. You should nag your husband to teach him chess. That can be their quality time together. Do you think that you could get dh to take him fishing or something. I think there's a bird of prey centre in Yorkshire, this would be good for them to go together, have you read steve biddulph's raising boys book? You can put a time limit on monopoly, you just add everything up once the three hours is up and the winner is the one with the most assets. You could try making this a permanent thing, a regular day when you are all free, each family member chooses one game a week. I like doing things like this, I used to tell parents of unhappy children to do this when I worked at the hospital, they like the routine and like spending time with their family. Childhood does not last for that long, before you know it they are out with their friends so you hardly see them.
you could try some shakespear for kids. This is as far from babyish as you can get! some is rather grusoms. Movies are a good idea. They could write a script, have characters, your son could do the lighting. I did noe with Joe, star wars lego, he took pictures using my camera, I loaded them on to the pc and turned them into a movie, then we put on the soundtrack. Your son could put them on youtube. Then he could get all the people at school to watch it. Lego men are good, there's loads of clips. Type in Yoda it's brilliant. They used to have a kids drama club in the local theatre here, they may have one where you are, this would be good for him. I'd defiently recommend the rock climbing though. It's great fun, sport for the non-sporty.

overthehill
Have just looked back at what you said about my original post. You say your ds has a lack of self confidence and a fear of failure - sounds just like me! It sounds like perfectionism. I had some cognitive behavioural therapy early last year and basically the counsellor said I was afraid of trying things because if I couldn't get them 100% right I felt I had completely failed. Being perfectionist can make you depressed. She gave me a good article about building self esteem in your children (as my ds is already showing signs of going the same way and he is only 4) by Judith McKay. I could get it scanned in and send you a copy if you're interested?

I have only skimmed this thread because I am in a rush. My (gifted) ds1 was bullied at school because he was bright. He tried hard to fit in - (the head implied that it was his own fault for not dumbing down enough to fit in. Not her exact words, but that is what she meant). He becaime suicidal. I found the National Association for Gifted Children very supportive and we went to a local group at weekends. We had family counselling - however, the counsellor agreed that the problem was actually the environment, not the child. Sadly - in the current system, any deviation from "average" is perceived as a problem.

I took him out of his primary school at 8 and sent him to a private school - it was a struggle and I know, not an option for a lot of people, but it saved him. He then got into a selective state school where it was ok to be clever.

He has always been a bit of a square peg in a round hole, and he still suffers from S.A.D. for which a light box has been a godsend. Things are much better now and he is growing into himself and is much happier. He will be going to University soon, and will be mixing with lots of other clever but eccentric types - he will be in his element. I don't know if you can relate to any of this, but maybe it will help a bit.

Petitfilou, it would be really interesting to see the Judith Mackay article as I think he is a perfectionist - just like me - and having read about CBT, I think that's what he may need. I told him tonight that I was going to see the GP to see if I could get some help for him.

Honestly, I feel so down tonight because after a brilliant few days he was at rock bottom again this evening & kept saying he wanted to kill himself & he didn't know how, and was threatening to go & get a knife & slit his throat "because everything he did went wrong, he hated himself so much & everyone disagreed with everything he said". I was at work today, but I spoke to dh later (he was out at the time I had all this suicidal stuff - 9 - 9.30pm) and apparently the drama course he was on today had a James Bond theme, but he's never seen a JB film so didn't really get it - although dh said he seemed fine when he got back. He pointed out that ds doesn't usually behave like that with him - but I'm sure it's not just put on for my benefit as he seems genuinely distressed and really means what he says - which is why it's so scary.

Bugger. Poor you. I think that actually planning to do it is different to saying that he's thinking about it. I'd take him to the GP tomorrow, make an emergency appointment. It doesn't matter whether he's putting it on or not, he's made plans and has decided what he's going to do. He needs an emergency assessment. He could be doing it to watch what happens but I wouldn't risk it. Does dh notice what ds's behaviour is like with you? i'm sorry. I'd get him seen.

My personal view is that dh just tends to leave him to it when he gets into a black mood rather than trying to comfort him or get him out of it. It turns out that he had to go out shortly after ds and dd got back from the drama, leaving them here on their own - although I don't think he was gone for more than half an hour & he did ask ds if he wanted to go with him. Dh tends to spend so much time busying about that (in my opinion) he's often not emotionally available for them, so they're probably less likely to confide in him. But maybe that's just my being over-emotional.

I think that I now agree with earlier posters. who advised going to the GP without him as otherwise he would probably feel even more 'odd', and he'd be unlikely to say much to the GP anyway. Oh, it all just breaks my heart, especially seeing him now sleeping so apparently peacefully.

Just a quick question: has anyone heard of 8-year-olds who have actually succeeded in killing themselves?? I do hope the answer's no.

Oh, sweetie, it'll get better. he's having a bad patch that's all. You really need to see the GP though. Tell him exactly how long it's been going on for. He needs a child psychiatrist if he's this bad. In the mean time support him, try and understand how he's feeling, it will help you. Anyone can be depressed, it's just a chemical imbalance in the brain. I've not seen any 8 year olds kill themselves. I've seen some with some serious problems and alot of teenagers try. It's ok for you to be upset. It's alot to try and cope with and it sounds like you've got no support. I wish I could send you a big hug.

overthehill
I'm not in work today as off sick but will get the article scanned for you next week. I am pregnant and forgetful though so please remind me if I don't (seriously)
Are you going to the GP today? If I had an 8 year old expressing suicidal thoughts like that and actually thinking about how to do it I would be down there faster than you could blink. He may not fully understand what he is saying but even so you can't take the risk. He clearly needs more help than he is getting. I agree with ave, it sounds like he needs to see a psychiatrist. Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks petitfilou, & I'll give you a gentle reminder if I don't hear. I did contact the GP surgery today, and the first available appointment with my GP (whom I know & trust) isn't till next week, so I've booked it. No more explosions today at least, so let's hope things keep like that for the next few days.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

cor, i wish youd been my mum, overthehill. i was v depressed for a lot of my childhood - from 10 upwards... nobody knew what to do with me.

a big slap on the back from me for actively trying to help him.

My ds tried to strangle himself. I just thank goodness that he did not succeed. Our GP did not hesitate in the situation and spent over an hour sitting on the phone, holding up the surgery, until someone in CAMHS agreed to make an appointment to see him. She told me that it was not to be taken lightly and that I was NOT to leave him alone.

My ds was in Year 4.

He is now in Year 8 and is clinically depressed again BUT not this time intent on self harm as it has been caught early enough (you get to recognise the downward spiral) so we are again under CAMHS with a psychiatrist and medication. CAMHS have identified that school is the problem for him and causing him all this distress and anxiety.

It will be hard for you as you have to be strong for him.

I have no idea what the actual suicide rate is for 8 year olds and I would not like to Google that as I think it would be very upsetting.

Your ds is unique, his situation/condition at the moment is unique. He needs specialist support. It will help the whole family, it really will.

Take care and my thoughts are with you.

oh candlewax

Candlewax, I really feel for you - it's so heartbreaking, isn't it?? My ds was also talking about strangling himself a while ago and got a tie to try and do it with. We were meant to be going out and leaving the dc's for a short time until the babysitter arrived, but I was too scared to go. Then dh said afterwards that it was impossible to strangle yourself as you'd lose your grip when you became unconscious & then be OK. Why are men so clinical?? - or is it just him???

I honestly didn't think that 8-year-olds actually made real suicide attempts, but your story is so scary and, like you say, Googling the subject would probably be the worst thing to do.

No it is not just your dh Overthehill. But I think for my ds to actually try and attempt this was a real eye opener that he needed help. If he HAD actually managed to do it, then I despair to think where we might be today.

Even 3 years down the line we watch him like a hawk.

Remember though that my ds has Aspergers as well and that it in itself is fraught with anxiety and depression through not understanding the world about him and not having good social/communication skills.

I don't mean to frighten you or to scare you, I just want you to be aware that 8 year olds CAN do harm to themselves because they feel desperate enough to try.

My dh was like yours but something happened one day which was his wake up call if you like and he took ds, his dx and everything very seriously from then on. Men tend to NOT want to see what is in front of them, that their children are "different" or need extra help. It is to do with the way we are all brought up I think.

Just popped back to see if how things are, overthehill. It sounds as though your DS is has lots of opportunities to do things he may enjoy. I really hope things start to get better for him (and you)

Candlewax, your story reminded me of a boy I taught who tried to strangle himself. It was awful. Thankfully, he hadn't really thought it through and he didn't do much damage but seeing an 8 yr old that unhappy is a terrible thing. I also witnessed him hurt himself in other ways to the point where he had tears rolling down his cheeks. His parents weren't very worried about him and shrugged it off. Sadly, I left the school before things were taken further so I don't know what happened. This thread has made me realise how lucky some children are, to have parents that really do care and want to help. I know it's not easy but you all sound wonderful.

Argh, I posted ealier under a different name

Candlewax, a colleague of mine has a brother with Asperger's and it did cross my mind that ds might have tendencies in that direction, particularly as he has difficulty in making sense of his feelings, but I thought that was probably to do with the fact that boys are generally less "emotinally literate" that girls.

The boy who I mentioned also had Aspergers.

Have you decided what to do next, Overthehill?

I have a son, also bright, who spoke like this at a similar age. Would like to give you some hope as our situation has improved enormously and we now have a (reasonably) well-balanced child. Everything you are talking about especially the gardening sounds wonderful. We also used supplements such as zinc and taurine to help with concentration and for him to focus his thoughts and lose the "brain fog" which seemed to descend sometimes.

Golly hope haven't killed this by possibly saying something wrong?