AIBU to be pissed off with Beaver leaders

[Ladyday1995]

DS 6 has been involved with squirrels and then beavers for over a year and really enjoys it. There’s been a few things which have gotten up my nose over the last year or so. Firstly the leaders seem to treat the group as some kind of super exclusive club where they don’t want parents to be involved, I have offered my help several times in the past and also volunteered to be involved with hikes etc, they don’t want to know. Secondly, during a trip to a designated scouting camp, DH and me went for a short walk around the grounds and discovered two things which disturbed us: 1) a burnt out van 2) a set of medieval stocks.
This really creeped us out and we kept DS off for a few weeks while we mulled it over, we decided we wouldn’t allow DS to stay on any overnight trips and accompany him on any day trips. Anyway, today during a church parade, one of the head scout leaders (in front of everyone including our vicar) made a huge deal out of DS necker, taking it off claiming it was untidy and hadn’t been done properly? It was mortifying for us and really offended us. Still we smiled and said we’d take more care next time. Then after the parade, another main scout leader wandered over to us, condescendingly tapping his shoulders, me and DH were perplexed, asked what do you mean?, he tells me I have sewn one of DS Welsh flag badges on the wrong way - then proceeded to say “I’m not OCD or anything but get it sorted by Wednesday”. This has pissed me off because I do in fact have OCD and I find this type of talk trivializes a condition I have lived with for 16 years. I will acknowledge that I have had something of a chip on my shoulder for some time about their ways but usually I just try to ignore it as DS enjoys going, but I’m really pissed off at this type of behavior. It would be different if we were pulled aside quietly and shown how to fold his necker properly, or he phrased his request for me to restitch his badges on differently. It’s a strange one, I would ideally like to move him to a different scouts group (not sure if this is even possible?) but this group does the parades at our local congregation so I would not like to cause any friction by moving him. I’d love to hear opinions on this, also maybe opinions on the stocks and burnt out van at the scouts camp - is this a normal feature on these pitches? Thanks for reading

Problem is OP you are not DBS checked (for scouting level) and to be honest parents can be more of a hinderance than a help on trips and help just isn't always needed! If you'd like to volunteer the door is always open!

Was it a scout specific site? I'm not sure what was worrisome about stocks! In terms of van if it had burnt recently then as long as the leaders weren't sending them off to play with it I'm not sure what the issue is?

Sounds a bit like you could be a problem parent so either take you DC out if you don't like it or take a step back and be reasonable

I run a girl guiding unit and yes, the regular vu terra need to be dbs checked, done a safeguarding course but we also need to pay fir them (as do scouts). This year it’s £54/year for each volunteer and member. Scouts have a similar thing.

Each group varies so widely as adults have different ways of doing the same things. I have met some truly awful adults involved with Scouting. I wished the selection process was harsher.

I always thought the point of Scouting was learning independence and skills and making freinds in a safe place. Whilst they always need volunteers you are likely to spoil the experience for him as you do sound ott. Nothing you have said sounds wrong. It's up to the child to ensure they are well turned out and you can't have the flag on wrong, some see it as an insult. Keeping him off for a few weeks is ott. The reaction to the camper van and stocks is odd, and I am sure they wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the van.

Scout group never asked me for a DBS, I work in a sector where my skills might of been useful to the group. I was led to believe these groups are screaming out for volunteers, afaik no other parents volunteer for any of the the groups at all, so I was a bit taken aback that they’ve spurred my offerings. I don’t Understand what you mean when you say I am being unreasonable? Also - you say “help just isn’t always needed”, and then “if you’d like to volunteer the door is always open”?

There's a difference between a parent turning up one evening to help, and volunteering regularly as a leader. The latter is what's needed. The former isn't actually very helpful, parents get in the way more than anything as they don't know what's needed. We also have loads of help from DofE kids (who are also pretty useless) so don't need another unhelpful pair of hands.
If you want to volunteer, then do so properly and become a leader as that actually works be helpful.
I wouldn't actually allow you to attend each week and hang around as it's distracting for your child, I'm surprised they allow it. But then I'm in Cubs rather than Beavers.

My sons beaver group has a rota for parents to help out each week, all parent were DBS checked to at the beavers expense.

I know the leaders are all volunteers and give up a huge amount of their free time, the majority I have met are great role models and good people. Occasionally I've come across power crazy buggers who treat meetings as boot camp. It goes to their heads. Hopefully there are other branches locally you can have trial sessions at and see if they are a better fit for your family.

He certainly needs pulled up on his ableist language

The burnt out van sounds like it had only just happened. The site is probably run by volunteer types and they probably hadn't go round to removing the van.

It seems a bit odd that you were walking around tbh. The idea is that the children are independent. So you saying you will only let him go if you are there defeats the purpose of the whole scouting movement.

I can't see the issue with correcting his scarf - if he hasn't done it properly it needs sorting out.

They are just volunteers. If you don't like what they do then you should probably go to another group. DH runs a footie team and it gets exhausting at times trying to keep everyone happy.

Scout group never asked me for a DBS, I work in a sector where my skills might of been useful to the group. I was led to believe these groups are screaming out for volunteers, afaik no other parents volunteer for any of the the groups at all, so I was a bit taken aback that they’ve spurred my offerings.

Scouts as a National organisation are very much in need of more volunteers. However, as you might expect, this isn't evenly spread across every County / every Group / every section.
Sometimes Leaders have a good team going and aren't as welcoming of new volunteers as they might be. But, in fairness, some volunteers are hard work, and take more managing than they get benefit from. In theory, any volunteering offer should go to the Group Scout Leader, and, in theory if a particular group genuinely doesn't need more volunteers, it would be great if volunteers were signpost to other ways that can help BUT most parents don't want to go to another group and there are some that don't want to support in another section. There are some parents that aren't particularly helpful in the same section as their own child. If this has caused issues in the Group before, they might be more cautious about encouraging new parents to become Leaders in their own child's section.
Of course, I am speculating, but with all of these stories, there will be more than one version of the same events.

Cant you just be grateful to the volunteers who give up their time and efforts for free to make these things exist? Given the constant risk assessments I highly doubt they’ll be anywhere near the burnt out van. Or put in the stocks.

Volunteers are a mixed bunch, that’s all I can say about the comments that annoyed you.

This is not my experience of beavers. I would
look at another group.

Our local group is lovely. Parents are on a rota to help. We tend to rotate for trips away too taking it in turns to take and bring back another child. The leaders are amazing. They help, provide advice and really care about the kids.

I have no hesitation in allowing DSS in camps away.

It's not wonderful they said 'OCD' in that way, I agree.

But the rest sounds silly. If they want volunteers I'm sure they'd let you know, but if they don't, so what? As PP say, it could be the issue is you don't have DBS check, so you'd have to be supervised and it might not be worth their while.

The burnt out van - are you sure they weren't joking when they said it 'spontaneously combusted'? That's a joke phrase.

The 'medieval' stocks aren't medieval. If they were, they'd be in a museum. They are probably also from a game - as PP say, likely it's one of those 'pay £1 to throw something at the beaver leader in the stocks!' games.

You are being a bit ridiculous.

@Ladyday1995 what I mean is help for the fun out and about activities are not always needed. We always find we get lots of parents come out the woodwork for anything fun we have planned but no help for the 'boring' ones in their eyes.

DBS checks are individual e.g I have one for my job but also have to have a separate one for my volunteering I can't use both.

Should you wish to become a volunteer then you would be a leader so therefore will be able to do the fun things alongside the more tedious admin ones!

It’s interesting how many of you are saying they wouldn’t allow their children to overnight or go to camp. It’s really been the making of my children and whilst I’ve never let my kids stay at another child’s house I know the leaders are all DBS checked and I also know most of the leaders on a friendly basis. Didn’t consider I was putting them at risk by letting them go to camp!

It's the opposite - parents are discouraged from attending, unless they have a full DBS check and are there for a specific reason (e.g. to assist a child with additional needs, or to be an extra pair of hands). One of the aims of Scouting is to foster self-reliance and independence, and spending nights away without a parent present is part of that. I take Beavers on around 4 nights away events each year (both under canvas and indoors), and everyone has a blast.

I'm a little sad that you wouldn't allow your DS to attend overnights, even when he's Cub age. Does that mean you won't allow him to go on school residental trips, or sleepovers at friends' and relatives' houses? Too many people in those situations that you know nothing about either...

all adults staying over night at a camp need to be fully DBS checked. it is also a rule that no adult is left alone with children 1 to 1. so eg if a child needed medical attention or cleaning up after an accident or accompanying somewhere there needs to be 2 adults present or an adult can be in charge of a group of children. likewise non-dbs helpers are not allowed to be unsupervised with any children and must have a dbs checkedadult with them. all helpers now also need to have done the safeguarding training.

you do come across as a very anxious person and i feel this is also how you come across to the leaders, if they feel that you are only volunterring so you can check up on them or spend the evening hovering over your child that is not very useful not healthy for anyone. Scouts is all about letting children have freedom in an age appropriate way to experience adventure.

You said you went for a walk around the grounds - this sounds like the stocks and the van were not in the immediate vicinity of the children. it is most likely that the leaders were aware of the dangers and either had plans in place to stay away from them or ways to mitagate any risk if they did need to go near them. The site owners probably have not had time to arrange disposal etc. and like others have said a lot of scout groups or village halls etc have stocks for summer fete etc.
All camps need to have a risk assessment done and submitted along with a nights away form for approval from district. any issues with the site or any activity can then be picked up before the camp goes ahead. Also someone at the camp needs to have a nights away permit - they will have had to have been assessed onall aspects of taking children away for the night.

You are not unreasonable if you want to change scout groups for any reason you like. If you feel that this group is not the one for your child, then it's your right to try somewhere else, if you can find a space.

However, it does sound like an overreaction on your part to me, especially as you say your DS loves the group he's at.

The volunteering - unusual I think for leaders to turn down help, but it genuinely could be that they have enough leaders at the moment, and don't need parents to stay. As others have correctly said, if you are staying for more than the occasional week, then you would need to be DBS's anyway. If you are offering to help now and again, they may just not need this kind of help at the moment. I'm a cub leader, we have six leaders in my pack, and don't often need help - if we do, I put a message out to parents and ask. If a parent offers who is a bit of a helicopter parent, I may not accept their offer of help, as it is usually to the detriment of their child to have their parent there. You say you will accompany your child on all day trips - you may not get the choice with this one!

The campsite - meh, a burnt out van and stocks, while a little odd, are not sinister. As long as the leaders are aware of them, and have made them out-of-bounds, and enforce this, then I don't think this is a big deal. There are almost always places on scout campsites that beavers shouldn't go near - woodpiles, barbed wire, workshops, activity equipment etc. Scout campsites are generally a bit more rough and ready than your typical Caravan Club site.

The head scout leader - I reckon every scout group has an older, slightly more old-school leader, who will make a bigger, louder fuss about things like uniform. He didn't handle it particularly well, he's probably used to dealing with teenagers who should be able to sort their own scarves etc, rather than 6 year olds, but it's not unusual to ask for necker to be re-rolled ahead of parade, and for badges to be put on correctly. We, as cub leaders, usually have to re-roll at least half the neckers before parade, although we don't make a song and dance about it.

Ultimately it's up to you, do you trust the leaders to keep your child safe? Do they enjoy it? If the answer to either of these is no, then move your child, or withdraw them from scouting. But don't do it because you find some of the things the leaders do to be irritating, or they piss you off. They're just people at the end of the day, and just because they do things differently to how you would, doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong.

My kids love it but I find you need to be fairly relaxed as a parent, which isn't for everyone.

Agree with this. When mine were in beavers I found it difficult as they have allergies and asthma. Despite filling out page upon page of offical medical info forms for every trip they weren't adequately supervised in this regard eg part of the form asks 'do they need assistance with taking medication'? I used answer 'yes', but this assistance/supervision never happened, ever. Pointless forms really.
I found the leaders to be very relaxed (too relaxed) about things like road safety too. They are all volunteers and I very much appreciated that they were giving up their free time to do this, but I always felt like there was an accident waiting to happen. This will depend on the grouo though.

I wouldn't have any issue re them refusing you as a volunteer. They'd need to do this formally for safeguarding reasons as pp have said.

I am a beaver leader. We need help with admin and planning and finances not volunteering for all the fun stuff. We have a parent Rota for this anyway to keep it fair, as everyone volunteers for the activities but when we ask for admin help it all goes quiet.
We are all volunteers and have been interviewed, trained and DSB checked. This type of thing really makes me question why I bother to be honest especially as you say your son enjoys it?

When mine were in beavers I found it difficult as they have allergies and asthma. Despite filling out page upon page of offical medical info forms for every trip they weren't adequately supervised in this regard eg part of the form asks 'do they need assistance with taking medication'? I used answer 'yes', but this assistance/supervision never happened, ever. Pointless forms really

As a cub leader, this would worry me, to be honest. Are you saying that you provided medication for trips/camps and forms stating the dosages/times for taking it, and it wasn't ever given to your child? If so, this isn't acceptable at all. On all camps/trips, we have a nominated first aider, who holds all medicines and forms, and they must ensure that medication is taken at the relevant times/dosages. The administration of the medicines must be witnessed, and both leaders sign to say this has been done.

If this isn't happening at your group, I would say that it's not unreasonable at all to raise this as a concern.

Yep. Our group has stocks for the fun days too. They have to be stored somewhere.

The appearance of neckers is quite important, as are the badges being sewn on the correct way.

The oddest thing that is leaping out at me is that they don’t want parent helpers/volunteers. That is completely unheard of in our two local groups!

If you aren’t happy then of course you can send dc to a different group. They get so much out of camping & attending that it would a shame to miss out because you don’t feel this group is a good one. Find another local group, I’m another one will happily let you volunteer.

Another helper (but never a guide or scout myself) here mine are just at the end of scouts now and I’ve helped on and off since beavers.
this may be a bad fit for you, in our group we had a few move into it (they always stayed) from other groups, some really are better than others and some are better fit for you and your family. If your child’s happy I would be inclined to leave them though, unless they appear unsafe.

the van wouldn’t have been an issue as the beavers shouldn’t have been completely free roaming. Sounds recent and a headache for scouts to have to remove from private land.

as others have said it could be the DBS issue or it could be the fact they have a good team who flow well together. when beavers and cubs get stuck I help out still, I know the leaders, I know how they work. We just get on with it and it works without explanations. It’s probably not a personal thing.

I would look at other groups if you feel it's not a good fit. However consider your child before committing - have they already made friends and are settled if so you need to weigh this up agains how you feel.
I'm not sure I'd be that bothered by some of your concerns but you are and tbh that's what matters. I would say that it's important to remember this stage as they get older and more independent can be difficult transition for parents to step back a bit.

I'm many years into this journey with a teenager just leaving Explorers and a 6yo at beavers - we started off in one group but moved to another for a few reasons but DS1 wasn't settled so it wasn't such a big issue.
DS2 has continued in the alternative group in another village which has meant a commitment of me driving for the past 8yrs+(beavers, cubs, scouts & explorers) rather than being able to send them down the road when they got older 😩 Its easier to relax about stuff the longer you've been involved though so I say these comments from a slightly different perspective to you.

Our beavers group asks for parent volunteers for certain activities (mainly trips) but also uses explorers on the young leaders course to bolster supervision.
All our leaders are fab and wouldn't call out a child publicly unless they were misbehaving however they do check badges are on right, neckers are smart, shoes are polished etc especially for public events. We have a lot of ex- military in our local troop and it shows.

I would say that the leaders are fab for their commitment & efforts and I'm first in line to thank ours & heap praise but I would also say that, that doesn't mean there aren't some crap leaders out there.

Two choices, leave your child unsupervised with adults you are uncertain about, or don't

It's not a hard choice