How do parents manage with toddlers/babies and no family support

[NC3435]

BG - my husband and I are both doctors. He works FT and I work 80% (one day off a week). We have a 1.5 year old DS who attends nursery 4 days a week. I am currently pregnant again. We live in a fairly expensive part of London due to shift work and difficulty managing nights, long days etc and commuting an hour but also because we pay for the nursery via the salary sacrifice scheme (the fees are taken from my salary prior to tax) as the nursery is run by the Trust. Our LL has given us notice for Jan and said if we'd like to stay on in our tiny flat it will be £900 more a month. It's a ridiculous amount to pay for such a small place but we can't afford to buy atm (not enough deposit and no family support financially). We are looking for cheaper flats. My parents live in another country and ILs live in another city so cannot help reduce the cost of child care. We are lucky in that we have stable jobs but we keep trying to save and it is just not possible. We go on one holiday a year usually to see my parents as that is the only way time I see them. I do not want to give up my job. I have worked very very hard to get to where I am with post graduate degrees etc and dropping more days will prolong my training even more. I just don't know what to do. There are no gym memberships to stop as we play outdoor sports or cycle. We don't eat out, go iut for movies etc as there is no childcare. I just want to know how other working professionals manage it all without family support?

We had twins whilst I was still training.
My suggestion-
move to somewhere cheaper in London

due to commute times - consider a nanny so don’t have to rush back home on working days and maybe we cheaper with two. You can take turns on who needs to get back home first depending on job needs.

Not sure if I would suggest both of you working LTFT - as I can advantage of one of you being a consultant asap- potentially less onerous on-calls depending on speciality and hopefully more money.

That's not how jobs in medicine work. Doctors can't just 'become' GPs, it takes several years of training on a specific training programme. For example, if I were to switch specialities to General Practice, I would need to go back through national recruitment (which is competitive) and spend at least 3 years training in a programme that could send me pretty much anywhere in the country. That's not feasible for a lot of people, especially once children are in the picture.

Several of my colleagues who have done GP training had to move away from their families and only saw them at weekends while they were training.

Work as a GP is brutal. I know GPs who work in health centres and start work at 6am and finish at 8pm with their only breaks being to go to the bathroom. Out-of-hours services can have similarly brutal shifts, locum work is highly stressful and unpredictable, and there's virtually no appreciation expressed by people for how much work is being put in. That's not family-friendly. Frankly, it's not human-friendly.

Everyone is entitled to ask for advice about managing their situation and being the best parent they can be. OP isn't complaining, she's asking how to juggle the situation.

My husband is a Dr here in the USA. We have 3 kids (2 in uni and one in high school now) and we have never lived near family. I was at home full time with them when they were small. I would sometimes pay for help for a few hours in the late afternoon/early evening when they were tired and falling apart as babies/toddlers, so I could make dinner without two kids clinging to my legs, while trying to hold the baby.
My parents died when I was a teen so have never had parental help and support. My ILs live two states away, about a12 hour drive.

Your LL may be chancing his arm as he knows 2 drs are renting.

Something has to give.

Personally I would have stopped at one child, to have a second in your situation is bonkers (if you still want to complete PhD ...and live in london ...and work near your job ...and you have no help nearby).
Having one kid would have solved many of your problems.

People will come and say 'well this no use to OP now is it? Baby is almost here' but I just wanted to voice that I find it bizarre that so many people have several children and then struggle with money. **

The salary sacrifice benefit for the nursery is huge, it's hard to make that up in childcare savings elsewhere, especially once your eldest gets 30 free hours. We had the same thing in Central London but commuted in with the kids every day from zone 3/4 borders.

It sounds a nightmare but was actually fine- if you choose somewhere on a direct transport route it's totally doable. We used to read books and chat.

We're not medics- public sector- but I travel loads for work and we have no help either. DP also went 4 days a week and I compressed my week to give us a bit of breathing space.

I moved from a 2 bed flat in an expensive area to a 3 bed mid-terrace in a cheaper area with an hour commute and got a nanny. It was worth it for the garden and change in lifestyle. After a few years I was able to buy a detached in a nicer area but still an hour commute. No family.

I don't know if it's an option for Drs but could you and DH each use annual leave 1 day per fortnight to reduce the childcare bill by one day a week?

Talk to your landlord. See if he can be more reasonable. If you can't afford any increase then don't bother.

Move and hire a nanny. Might be cheaper than nursery for two, especially if you shared.

See if an au pair would work out once one is in nursery and one is starting school.

The real problem is cost of accommodation and the commute time crunch.

Hang in there. Be kind to each other. This is the difficult part.

Move to Shrewsbury/Hereford/Cardiff/Swansea/Aberystwyth when you can. We need great doctors and life is much easier and cheaper. We didn’t have help either or inherited property so in a similar position to you. We moved from London which I miss but the children have had a great upbringing in a lovely area. Also crying out for GPs.

Worth ringing them up and looking at Powys website Brecon is a lovely area.

I think you know, as pp have said, that the issue is really your rent. We live in zone 3 SW London - yes it isn't the fanciest part of town, but its been perfectly nice for us for 5 years and there are 3 bed properties to rent around us for much less than £2900. Here's one example.

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/129343811

So i think you need to start looking at where you could realistically commute from on the outskirts and make a move.

In the long run, by the time you are back to work after baby #2, your eldest child will nearly be getting their 30 funded hours (unless one of you earns over 100k?) So that will relieve a little bit of pressure.

But i get it - its hard. I think for a lot of us, its just a case of hanging on until kids get to school and it gets a bit easier.

Move home further away and deal with the commute. Ask on the MN property board - say what train station you need to get to and ask for easy commutes. The Elizabeth Line changes the journeys into London soon so new possibilities open up.

Au pair is a good idea too. Or find a nursery where the staff offer Babysitting ie cash-in-hand private childcare to top up their income out of nursery hours.

Also Tell your LL £2900 isnt market rate and is unaffordable. Suggest to your LL a compromise - a rent extension for 6 months on one month's notice while you look for a new place, and you will pay £2300 pcm in that time. He may counter offer 2500 which, for 6 months, you accept. Argue however you can eg the carpet is grotty, the flat has noisy neighbours etc. Ive succeeded in avoiding a rent rise in the past with arguments like that as LL knew it would be hard to find a new tenant. (Maybe though, LL is selling the flat, if they can't aford the mortgage. )

Compromise is inevitable - you can never have it all unless you have a big pot of money ... could family loan or gift you money to help you out?

Sorry I didn't realise there were more replies. I cant just become a GP. That is not how medical training works. I also enjoy my specialty and have no desire to change when I'm so close to the end. Same goes for my husband. Re why we are having a second child if we can't afford it - we can afford it. We pay for everything ourselves, I was simply asking what others in our position have done. I completed my PhD whilst having a child and pregnant with a second. The LL was planning to sell but the flat is part of a terraced house (split into flats) owned by the local council and there is subsidence(?) and other issues so he must have changed his mind. He did say his mortgage rate has gone up. We've seen cheaper flats so we are going to move further out - he's not going to reduce the rent. Yes we will be eligible for 30 free hours.

Would a childminder / nanny be more suitable for two .. I think that would work

@NC3435 I'm happy for you to message me privately if you want more specific advice or information about how we manage. Don't give up on your specialities!

Um, what?

Ignoring the fact that anyone can complain at any time, do you not think that a household with two parents working shifts in stressful jobs that are literally life and death may have more than average amounts of worry and challenges in finding childcare? Especially after a global pandemic, where there have been significant amount of medics and nurses leaving the profession.

And no, I'm not a doctor but I appreciate those that are.

You don't know what you're talking about,

My family members, friends and acquaintances who are doctors, male as well as female, knew they wanted children so they didn't stay in education and aimed to complete their specialist training in their early 30s.

The vast majority do not have a partner who works in healthcare. So their partner can pick up the slack.

The British ones chose specialties that they thought would be more compatible with family life.

Some of them, mostly the foreign educated ones, had to change specialty.

A lot only have one child due to the cost of healthcare and housing.

Oh and some of them have now emigrated due to the work load and other crap.

When the childminder or nanny has holidays or is ill then the OP would be stuck.

We only have one child and we bought a long time ago so have a BTL as well as a house we live in. That’s basically how. We couldn’t afford London (not that we would want to) so that’s a choice you are making for your career as well as having a second child. It’s not wrong, but it’s your choice and it therefore costs.

We are crippled by childcare costs but there’s an end to that in sight. Less than 2 years left and then we will just have a little bit of after school and holidays to pay (£150pm instead of £1kpm).

It is hard though at times, we haven’t had a night out since DD born over 3 years ago. But again that’s our choice.

Sorry that should say -
"A lot only have one child due to the cost of child care and housing."

How do they manage?

With extreme difficulty.

Here is my advise - think differently. You will have this issue for a defined period of time - it will ease when the babies are out of care and in school, when your trainingfinishes and so on.

You have to get a new flat so look ONLY where there are good non fee paying school options. That may mean paying a little more for rent now but you off set school fees and you "save". We did that - it really helped. We have school fees now but having them in state primary really hepled us save like mad and get organized.

"Save" for now by not running up debt or at least, really containing it. Be very strict with your budget etc. All children are expensive but the first is the most as you get all the kit for them. You should now only buy once as all can be passed down - so cost per wear of all clothes is really low in the end. When they grow up and get notions that goes out the window BUT you can have a good run.

Usual things then - like a carefully managed credit card for flight points etc. House swops are great for time away and people with young families really love them as the set up helps. We had some great trips that way - the cc points and house swops.

Something to keep your spirit up is the idea of saving the childcare money once the start going to school. You have no realy chnage in lifestyle but it starts to acrue very quickly.

Once you have finished traing you may decide to move where you will make significant savings.

The big ticket items are the care, the rent and in 4/5 years - school. Watch those and you will muddle through.

Good luck. Most of us get through it. You will too but it is scary.

You have no realy chnage in lifestyle but it starts to acrue very quickly.

The phone rang!😁

Smart