When discipline doesn’t work?

[SpinningFloppa]

What do you do when children don’t care about being told off and just do the same things anyway, I’m tired of disciplining my children they just ignore me and continue to do the things anyway, for example throwing rubbish on the floor. I’ve told them time and time again, made them pick it up, but they still don’t care and will repeatedly do it. This is just the tip of the iceberg there is so much more.

How old is your DC?

5 and 8 (have older DC but it’s the younger 2 that are so badly behaved, my older DC was never like this)

How do you punish them when they do this? Consistent discipline is key. If you mean they are throwing things out of the bin I would be on them like a ton of bricks.

No just throwing stuff on the floor like if they’ve eaten something throwing the empty packet on the floor. 5 year old still drawing on walls so I can’t buy pens anymore as despite being told not to she still does it, I wouldn’t expect a child older than maybe 3 to still draw on walls, can’t leave them alone as they trash the place, it’s everything really. If I tell them not to do something even if I tell them off they will still do it.

Actions, consequences.

if they do something they shouldn’t when you have told them repeatedly not to then there has to be a consequence e.g. removal of something fun they enjoy.
They earn it back through good behaviour.

The reason it doesn’t work is because ‘discipline’ isn’t just you saying stuff in huff. No one would give a shit about that if they listened to it day in day out. Kids aren’t stupid.

You cut the verbal negativity. You only praise. Everything they do right (even if they’re not doing much at all!) you praise, smile, hug, kiss. You basically become Mary Poppins. You also instruct and coach in a very positive, affirming way. “Ok sweety, just pop that yoghurt pot in the recycling… good girl’ etc.

You have to be calm and in-control even if you don’t feel it.

When they misbehave, or don’t do as you’ve asked - you become very disappointed mummy - stern face, no eye contact, no shouting. Ignore the misbehaving child and if appropriate highlight the good behaviour of the other child. “well Jack had been a VERY good boy haven’t you recycling your yoghurt pot - do you want to go and get your bag and we’ll read your school book… good boy.” Quite often this may lead to…” oh look, polly is putting her yoghurt pot away now - good girl - go and get your book and we’ll read your’s after Jack’s” - so the second they are ‘good’ you switch back to positive verbal affirmation.

So no judgment, no shouting, no naughty step (pointless) - just pure Pavlovian psychology - attention for good behaviour and little to no attention for poor behaviour.

If they are kicking off or doing something dangerous - you can still employ this by removing them physically (gently) but no eye contact, calmly, no drama, no words. Once they are regulated again you can communicate verbally in a loving and positive way.

Do this consistently and instinctively and they soon learn which behaviour gets them smiley, happy, sunshine mummy and which does not.

Logical consequences. “Oh I’m sorry darling, you can’t have a packet of crisps as you threw your rubbish on the floor last time. When you learn to put your rubbish in the bin, then you can have a snack.” And do not give in. “Yes I can see you are so disappointed, I would be too! When you learn to put your rubbish in the bin, then you can have a snack”. And just don’t engage any further than that simple instruction.

Also agree with @UWhatNow - I feel like a children’s TV presenter a lot of the time but my 2 year old knows to take her plate to the kitchen when she’s finished and put her rubbish in the bin as I practically fall over myself praising her for it.

Sorry to pick fault but please don't compare your children in any way, their achievements and challenges should stand alone, it's very harmful to be judged against someone else's standards whether unfavourably or not. You say no judgement but comparing children's behaviour is judging them against each other.

You need to mix up rewards with consequences. I don't think shouting works tbh.

When mine were that age we had a marble jar & every time they did something good they got a marble. Then we worked our rewards 10 marbles = sweets from shop 20 marbles = comic 30 marbles = trip out somewhere & so on.

If they're naughty you take marbles out. I think at 5 I would still implement naughty step.

Reasonable routine in place & lots of chance to run off energy outdoors. Team sports help too I reckon. Wears them out. It's a balancing act between wearing them out enough so they don't mess around at home & doing too much so they're over tired.

Don't ask them to do things with a "please" it gives them an option. Tell them to do things with a "thank you" as you are assuming the job is done.

"Sebastian, could you put your rubbish in the bin please"

"Sebastian, I can see you've finished your crisps, put the wrapper in the kitchen bin. Thank you.".

It's a small thing but it works wonders.

What Anna says. All the way.

It's not punishment, no need for bad moods, telling off, etc. it's just a statement. Value free statement.

If you want, you can warn them ahead of time.

'Here you go- remember to put your wrapper in the bin. If you leave it on the floor, then I won't give you things with wrappers. Where does the wrapper go? Yes, in the bin!'.

Where are they learning that this behaviour is ok??

It isn't ok for any age of dc to draw on the walls. If they were told it was ok up to aged 3 they won't understand why it's not ok now.

Same with wrappers. If they are being thrown on the floor and you are giving them more to throw on the floor you are telling them it's ok to throw them on the floor.

No more wrappers!

No telling off just don't give them opportunities to be delinquent. Do they litter on the street? Vandalise toilet cubicles at school?

I'm a pretty lax parent but there are lines which if crossed (criminal behaviour if it was out of the house eg above) that gets straight to bed, no treat food and no screens.

If they behave like criminals I'll treat them like convicts!

In addition to the logical consequences mentioned earlier, you need a carrot approach as well.

Try and shower attention on them for all positive behaviour, and try to structure their time so they don't have time to find mischief to make!

You might find a strict timetable/routine helpful- for you.

Eg:
Come in from school, change into pjs or home clothes and then sit at the table for a snack and a drink.

While everyone does that, listen to them read/do homework.

As everyone has changed and eaten their snack so nicely, we'll have a video on for half an hour, while I cook the dinner.

Then it's jigsaws, colouring. Pens come out of a high cupboard for colouring, and go away at the end.

Then stories and bed.

Obviously that totally depends on your household set up, but find8ng a structure that works makes life lots easier. If you can rope your older DC in to help with elements of it (maybe doing a bed time story) or at least to back you up while you get it established, that will really help.

Another thing is to enforce that eating is only at the table. Dropping wrappers can be connected to wandering round the house with food.

If it’s snack time, they can be helping you - ‘Undo the box and pour the raisins into your bowl, thank you. What about the Pom bears? Are they going on the same plate? Now the wrappers go in the bin before you sit down. Thank you for being such a fantastic helper! I could not manage without you!’

I agree with everyone else.

Consistent, logical consequences.

If they throw wrappers on the floor, well they can't have wrappers can they? So that's no crisps, sweets, chocolate, snack bars....until they learn to put rubbish in the bin. And they probably need to eat at the table too.

These consequences shouldn't be given in anger, just calmly explain the logic of it.

Alongside this, calm and logical approach to negative behaviour you praise absolutely everything they do that is good. You should always, no matter how badly behaved they are, be praising more than telling them off.

I could have written this myself
It's exhausting

I think my child has a behavioural issue

You're telling them off, but what are the actual consequences of their bad behaviour? If they're constantly being told off they're not going to give a fuck. You have to actually do something.

At 5, drawing on the walls, I'd be removing every single pen and then cancelling a looked-forward-to activity and replacing it with a very boring afternoon cleaning the walls. Vandalism = can't go to Jack's birthday party and have to clean up your mess.

They was never told drawing on the wall was ok 🙄 I’m just saying it’s behaviour you associate with a toddler as I’ve heard of toddlers doing it, but I expect it to stop after 2/3. They have time out or things removed but the behaviour doesn’t change.

Also we don’t have a table as there is no room for one.

Hi, what are the consequences if they don’t do as you ask?

As above, time out, removing items, doesn’t change the behaviour they just do it again the next time.

Shouting loudly was the only thing that worked with mine. And drawing on walls, the one time DD2 did it, she was made to clean it off, and was not allowed to do anything else until she had made a decent job of fading the scribbles. Were there tears? Yes, lots of them. Did she do it again? No.

This is interesting. So there isn't a designated place to do the things you are concerned about (eating and drawing). That's probably making it worse because fixed boundaries are really helpful.

Is there room for a folded/leafed thing against a wall?

IME it's very hard. I can discipline my eldest, I can't with my youngest. Guess who is finally on CAMHS pathway for ASD diagnosis.
It really might not be you doing it wrong. Although you will have to jump through many hoops until the professionals agree with you.

Stick with logical, natural consequences rather than abstract ones.

Even if you don't have a table, you can have a designated place to sit and eat.