3 year old deliberately weeing during tantrums

[caggie3]

We are in a truly disgusting phase where if my (fully toilet trained, in pants and has been for ages) 3 year old is kicking off a lot, but when he doesn't get his way or is getting gold not to do something he will just look you in the eyes and piss all over the floor. Doesn't even take his clothes off just pisses all over himself and everything else. He's done it about 8 times this week, 3 times just today. I just want to cry it's so disgusting and totally out of line. This morning it was because he didn't want to go to school so he just kept doing it and we had to keep changing him. Yesterday it was because he hit the dog so I put him on the naughty step. Tonight it was because I turned the TV off for him to go and have a bath. What the bloody hell do I do to stop this? It's so out of character for him he's capable at communicating and has very good speech. Im just at a loss.

No. It’s still abuse.

It sounds like this is more of a relationship problem. You sound like you are both locked into a battle for power and control. You need to be working together as a team, you are on the same side!
I would really work on your emotional connection. Try to spend more time having fun together. Lots of praise directly to him but also let him hear you praising him to other people.
In the moment I would just ignore the weeing, stop giving it any power.

I work in children's services and this would definitely be considered emotional abuse.

I'd put him back in nappies and say that if he wees in his clothes then he has to wear nappies.

Alternatively, wipe up the mess and leave him wet. Just completely ignore him. He's old enough to change his own pants so I'd just not give it the time of day. It'll lose shock value by being ignored. If he cries that he is wet just reply Well go and change then.

@Flopisfatteningbingforchristmas I don't agree! When my six year old is in a huff with us he often starts smiling and I see a little smile and then I laugh and he laughs and it's over and we can move on:

It's ok to make a joke or have a laugh to diffuse something I'm not saying to laugh at a child to shame them is ok:

@3WildOnes
I'm so shocked to hear using laughter as a way to diffuse something is considered emotional abuse. Surely if the child is smiling or starting to ease and you use a laugh as a way to break the situation up; it's okay? Humiliating a child is abuse but making a joke to help them feel better I think is okay?

On a side note can you let me know about this?
I wish childrens social services were more able to protect very vulnerable children. Heaps of them slip through the net. It's impossible to refer a child for protection issues if you don't know their name, date of birth and address. I saw a despicable scene in the summer and I called the police and they told me to ring social services so I rang them and they told me I couldn't raise anything with them because I didn't know the children or the abuser (who was a childcare provider of some form?) is that true?

Can't believe some of these responses 🤦🏼‍♀️The OPs child is deliberately weeing on the floor when he is being told no...i agree OP it is disgusting and if it was my DD i would be saying the same thing. I'm not going to give her a hug(??) as PP suggested as that is rewarding the behaviour imo. I would clean up, take the wet clothes off, minimal interaction, and would probably put a pull up on if they were threatening to do it again. I would also start explaining immediate consequences if they did it again.
Children need to learn that they are not in charge, around this age my DD did atart to get a bit 'cocky' and try to rule the roost a bit as she was pushing boundaries.

But the poster says laugh at him and embarrass him, not make him laugh. I’ve been on many child protection training sessions over the years and this would definitely be abuse.

@cultkid did you not read the post that I was commenting on?
The poster didn't say use laughter to diffuser the situation. She said laugh at him to embarrass him.

I can understand your frustration, I get quite a strong reaction to toileting issues too, not had quite the same but a child who regressed and it took a long time and a lot of cleaning up shit to work out what was going on. But I think you need to work out what is going on here. And you’ve given enough information to suggest that he does this when he’s really angry with you, because at that moment, he knows it bugs you and wants to retaliate to being told off.

I agree with others that avoiding loaded words like disgusting is a good idea. Even if about the action and not about him - at his age the two are the same thing, he can’t understand that nuance. I’m generally against behavioural approaches like naughty steps. They just teach children that when they do things you don’t like they need to be separated from/rejected by you. And usually the times when they are acting out (eh hitting the dog) are the times they most need your help to organise how they feel - they can’t do that alone on a step. Think of how hard it is for us to come down when we are totally raging, and they are so wee!

I would suggest you start by naming what you are seeing, eg you were so annoyed about [whatever it is] that you hit the dog! I can’t let you hurt so we are going to sit here together to calm down and talk about what happened when you are feeling ok. And if he pees, not reacting other than to say it looks like you are really angry/upset/frustrated etc, time to get cleaned up now. Later when he’s calm you could have a chat about other ways to express anger, something to squeeze or hit, run around or say it in words. I think often even articulate children at that age lose their ability to express strong emotion in the moment so they need help and emotional containing from you.

I also would suggest having a think about what this particular act triggers in you. How do you think your parents reacted if you were really angry? Or if you had toileting issues? I know that my own mum was very anxious about pee and poo mess/germs and I can see myself getting all triggered by it - when I take a min to rationalise I realise it’s just a pair of pants in bin or a bit of cleaning - not the huge deal it can be in the moment. He and you will come through this, but it’s an opportunity for you to help him learn that being angry with people you love is normal, and that he has your support in learning better ways to express it.

@cultkid
To your second point- are you saying you couldn't give them any names or anything to else to go? A registration number etc? If you don't give any identifying details there is not much they can do!

@3WildOnes

Thank you so much for coming back to me

I got the registration of their mini van, the time and the place it happened and I asked at the entrance if they had cctv, it was a fruit picking farm for families a PYO place

When I called the police I asked them surely they could check who van was registered to and if was registered to a nanny and I had descriptions of the child and woman in question
I gave this information to SS and asked if they could get in touch with police to find out who the person was who had the van and then check on them as they were a sort of nanny of some kind and they said they couldn't I felt so helpless 🥹

@Flopisfatteningbingforchristmas

In that case I take it back you can't humiliate him but you can try to make it in to a come on I thought you were able to use the potty kind of situation

I love my annoying kids so much and I do laugh with them but I would not humiliate shame or make them awkward. I want them to tell me if they can't do a poo or their bum is itchy so it would defeat the purpose of all my hard work to shame them.

If that what animal meant then I don't agree with laughing at him

Sorry I hope that clears it up

Normally in the case of being given a car registration they would act from what I know.
I don't actually work in front line services though, I'm a therapist so I don't have much involvement in the referrals process. I do know that at least one of the families I work with, a referral was made by a stranger reporting abuse and then taking their car registration. So if you do see anything that concerns you in the future and you have that information then I would still make a referral.

OP - you need to rule out physical issues - UTI, constipation and worms. These are all things which will cause him to not want to go and have a wee/poo and then he would get upset and accidents happen.

I would ignore it. Strip him and carry on like nothings happened. He will soon get bored.

Mine did this until the day he was sat next to his favourite puzzle and it had to be binned. You need to find a natural consequence that will deter him.

I'd have a preemptive discussion.
Explain he's normally a lovely boy but when he doesn't get his own way he wees.
He's not a bay and this isn't to happen again.
If it does, you'll give him a bag of clean clothes and wet wipes to sort himself out. Then you'll have a cuddle.

If he tantrums about it. Sit next to him(not in the wee!) get your phone out and ignore him, every now and then say 'when you're all clean we can get on with cuddling' etc. You don't need a naughty step.

@caggie3 He is 3? Think how quickly three years go past he was literally in your womb three years ago he is sooo little. You are being so horrible ? Just connect with him you sound like you don’t actually like your child ?

Some of these replies on here are so strict I would hate to have you as parents , try looking up positive parenting.

Only on Mumsnet could a women get called horrible, deranged and accused of abuse for finding a toddler spite-pissing on the floor disgusting and asking for help on how to handle it.

I can't believe some of the responses either. He actually told his mum he's doing it deliberately and someone suggested he needs to be checked for worms 😂

Yes that was me. Like I said in my comment worms cause physical discomfort, tiredness due to lack of sleep and cause wee accidents. 40% of pre schoolers in the uk have worm. I will repeat what I said in my previous post, the discomfort from worms can make children avoid going to the toilet, the pain from needing a wee causes a tantrum, hence the wetting during a tantrum.

The women who was accused of the abuse was the one who suggested abusing the child through humiliation not the OP.

The child isn't accidentally weeing during a tantrum, he is doing it on purpose!

People who don't advocate informing a three year old that weeing on the floor on purpose because he hadn't got his own way is wrong / behavioural, how are you teaching your children right from wrong? No wonder we have got so many entitled little shits roaming the streets.

My DN used to do this. She’s now a laid back high earning exec with an intelligent witty mind and children of her own.

You just treat it like all other tantrummy behaviours - benign indifference. Clear up. Move on. Content yourself that they will grow out of it.