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Original poster

How the heck to navigate this (split family situ)

29 replies

MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 19:18

This is a complex one. NC as very outing. I really don't know how best to handle it.

My DD's father / paternal grandparents were very emotionally abusive to me but have never (previously) showed any signs with her. We split whilst I was still pregnant, I've worked very hard to build a good, stable family dynamic and co-parenting relationship. Standard alternate weekends arrangement, she lives with me through the week. On her Dads' weekends he chooses to let her stay with the grandparents quite often because he works a lot - for same reason, they tend to have her for most of his share of holidays. She is now upper primary school.

She used to have an excellent relationship with the grandparents, but in the last year has started getting very stressed about going there, nightmares when she comes home etc. She recently opened up to me that the grandmother in particular is very emotionally abusive - makes her spend hours doing things she wants to do but refuses to talk to her about or do anything she likes. Gets explosive over things not going exactly the way she'd planned. Tries to "teach" DD lots of high level things (she used to be a teacher) but then gets angry if she can't grasp them. Calls her bigoted if she has a different opinion to her. These are just a few of many examples. I believe DD as this is exactly how she used to be with me. The grandfather on the other hand does a lot of blackmail if she doesn't want to go "we won't be around forever" etc.

I spoke to exP and said this really has to stop, DD is dreading going to theirs and doesn't want to stay for long periods like holidays anymore although she doesn't mind seeing them with him. I thought, naively, that he'd back her corner but instead he's got cross and said if that's how she feels, she needs to tell them this herself at a formal meal he's organising. And that she should expect they'll give away all her things etc. He also keeps pressuring her to make a decision re: all holidays and weekends for the rest of the year because they book so far in advance.

I just don't know how to help. DD is adamant she doesn't want to cut contact altogether or ruin the relationship. But she's also v stressed and unhappy and I feel both her grandparents and dad are treating her abusively. If I weigh in, it's likely to turn very nasty as they are all the kind of people that if you disagree with them they dig their heels in more and twist the situation. And whilst I absolutely don't mind fighting DD's corner, I'm concerned I may make things worse for her.

Sorry that was so long - any suggestions appreciated.

OP posts:
PritiPatelsMaker · 31/08/2022 19:56

I have no idea how you cope with that but it's bloody shocking that he expects his DD to say she's not happy to her DGPs like that.

Is there a Child Arrangements Order in place?

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 19:59

PritiPatelsMaker · 31/08/2022 19:56

I have no idea how you cope with that but it's bloody shocking that he expects his DD to say she's not happy to her DGPs like that.

Is there a Child Arrangements Order in place?

No formal arrangement in place...we've never needed one up until now, any bumps in the road have managed to be discussed and sorted out but this is a whole other ballgame. I would go through courts etc if I needed to, but DD really doesn't want me to

OP posts:
Creepymanonagoatfarm · 31/08/2022 20:05

Has dd got a phone? Do they live near? If she wants to end the visit she needs to text you and you go collect her...
If her df won't protect her you must.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Families General parenting Relationship problems
PritiPatelsMaker · 31/08/2022 20:05

Apart from offering DD a little break from seeing them so that she can work out how she feels I'm a bit stick how you would navigate this.

Perhaps if you ask MNHQ to move this over to the Relationship Board you might get a few posters with experience of having DC with someone who had zero empathy Flowers

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:09

Creepymanonagoatfarm · 31/08/2022 20:05

Has dd got a phone? Do they live near? If she wants to end the visit she needs to text you and you go collect her...
If her df won't protect her you must.

She has got a phone but no, it's 3 hours away so not just a case of popping from one home to the other. She knows I would absolutely go and get her at any time but it's not that straightforward. She doesn't want to upset them....but at the same time they upset and stress her. I would completely support her if she wanted to go no contact but she doesn't want that. She wants a good relationship without having to be alone with them, but her dad won't find a way to subtly facilitate that and I don't know how to get through to him, or how to engineer the situation since I'm not part of that family group. Any intrusion from me will be viewed as an intervention.

OP posts:
Campervangirl · 31/08/2022 20:10

Your dd is a child having nightmares and becoming stressed, I'd say now is definitely the time to step in, you couldn't make it any worse.
The family meal where your dd has to tell her GPs how she feels, I'd knock that idea on the head straight away.
If she doesn't want to go don't make her, she's not seeing / spending quality time with her df which is the idea of contact not so that he can leave her with his abusive parents.
I'd make a stand, your dd can't but you can, she won't want / isn't mature enough to deal with this but I'm pretty sure that the fact that she's told you what's going on is because she needs to step in

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:11

PritiPatelsMaker · 31/08/2022 20:05

Apart from offering DD a little break from seeing them so that she can work out how she feels I'm a bit stick how you would navigate this.

Perhaps if you ask MNHQ to move this over to the Relationship Board you might get a few posters with experience of having DC with someone who had zero empathy Flowers

Thank you - generally the Relationships board is more about romantic relationships and I'm not so concerned about how me and ExP get on (in fact we generally get on pretty well and I'm surprised by his reaction to this). I'm really hoping for guidance on how to handle the parenting aspect here without doing the wrong thing for my DD.

OP posts:
Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:13

Campervangirl · 31/08/2022 20:10

Your dd is a child having nightmares and becoming stressed, I'd say now is definitely the time to step in, you couldn't make it any worse.
The family meal where your dd has to tell her GPs how she feels, I'd knock that idea on the head straight away.
If she doesn't want to go don't make her, she's not seeing / spending quality time with her df which is the idea of contact not so that he can leave her with his abusive parents.
I'd make a stand, your dd can't but you can, she won't want / isn't mature enough to deal with this but I'm pretty sure that the fact that she's told you what's going on is because she needs to step in

She's begged me not to though? I'm going to tell exP no way should that meal be happening. But that only leaves a few options. A) He talks to them himself, which he clearly doesn't want to B) I talk to them, which she really doesn't want me to as she knows it won't go well C) DD backs down but why should she put up with this?

OP posts:
A580Hojas · 31/08/2022 20:14

So - he lives near his parents but that's 3 hours away?

I think an eow arrangement when parents live 3 hours apart is too much anyway. That's a lot of travelling for a little girl.

PritiPatelsMaker · 31/08/2022 20:16

I think at 9 it's fine to stick up for your DD even if they're saying they don't want you to.

She sounds like she's having a really difficult time and someone has to stand up for her.

WestIsWest · 31/08/2022 20:18

Campervangirl · 31/08/2022 20:10

Your dd is a child having nightmares and becoming stressed, I'd say now is definitely the time to step in, you couldn't make it any worse.
The family meal where your dd has to tell her GPs how she feels, I'd knock that idea on the head straight away.
If she doesn't want to go don't make her, she's not seeing / spending quality time with her df which is the idea of contact not so that he can leave her with his abusive parents.
I'd make a stand, your dd can't but you can, she won't want / isn't mature enough to deal with this but I'm pretty sure that the fact that she's told you what's going on is because she needs to step in

I agree with all of this. I know she’s saying she doesn’t want you to stop contact, but if her Dad won’t allow her to see them just with him, then you need to step in and sort it.

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:20

A580Hojas · 31/08/2022 20:14

So - he lives near his parents but that's 3 hours away?

I think an eow arrangement when parents live 3 hours apart is too much anyway. That's a lot of travelling for a little girl.

Both the exP and grandparents live in same village 3 hours from us. Yes it's a long way, but she's been doing this for most her life and it's always worked OK for us. She's nearly 11 BTW not 9...although yes, still very young.

OP posts:
Bonheurdupasse · 31/08/2022 20:20

OP

This is really shit for your child.
I'll say something really unorthodox - get her to record it on her phone.
Have it recording from the moment she comes in the door.
Practice with her how to do it unobtrusively.

When you have the recording you can listen to it and if useful that way, have ExP listen to the worst bits.
And threaten him with ? something? court? SS? exposure ? if he doesn't stop it.

A580Hojas · 31/08/2022 20:22

She's been doing this for 11 years? poor girl!

crunchieroxks · 31/08/2022 20:25

I know you don't want to make things worse and that your dd says she doesn't want you to do anything.
But
I think this is exactly the time TO do something to stop this asap.
This isn't a decision that your daughter can make alone, you need to take control of the situation now and stop the contact with the grandparents.
Your daughter is (unconsciously perhaps) asking you to take control of this as the adult.
I'm sorry, it sounds hideous for both of you Flowers

SequinsandStilettos · 31/08/2022 20:30

There are several issues here:
Travelling, I have done myself, least of my concerns
Childcare, if he is working, eleven is too young to be left all weekend
Grandparental rights, in this case they can claim they have helped raise her
but toxicity is the biggest concern here and leaves little choice: she stays with you on the weekends her dad works/holiday club if needed and sees his parents with him present. If he cannot put her first then a formal arrangement, worded to that effect, is required.

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:31

Bonheurdupasse · 31/08/2022 20:20

OP

This is really shit for your child.
I'll say something really unorthodox - get her to record it on her phone.
Have it recording from the moment she comes in the door.
Practice with her how to do it unobtrusively.

When you have the recording you can listen to it and if useful that way, have ExP listen to the worst bits.
And threaten him with ? something? court? SS? exposure ? if he doesn't stop it.

I agree if the conversation goes ahead I will push for this. And use it if necessary for a court case. But - I'm hoping I can talk her dad into not making the conversation even happen. He says she needs to be responsible for her choices if she no longer wishes to see them. I am thinking of saying if that conversation must take place, I want to be present too. But DD won't like that at all. The trouble is she knows her grandparents don't like me, which I couldn't care less about but makes it even more awkward for her.

OP posts:
Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:33

SequinsandStilettos · 31/08/2022 20:30

There are several issues here:
Travelling, I have done myself, least of my concerns
Childcare, if he is working, eleven is too young to be left all weekend
Grandparental rights, in this case they can claim they have helped raise her
but toxicity is the biggest concern here and leaves little choice: she stays with you on the weekends her dad works/holiday club if needed and sees his parents with him present. If he cannot put her first then a formal arrangement, worded to that effect, is required.

Yes I'm pretty confident if it came to legal grounds, on toxicity basis (if DD would testify), it would be ruled formally that she stayed with me if her dad was working. Trouble is as I say, she doesn't want something formal because she knows her grandparents would react very very badly to this approach. And her dad for that matter.

OP posts:
WestIsWest · 31/08/2022 20:36

She’s a child though OP, so she doesn’t get to decide. She’s told you what’s happening and she needs you to protect her, even if she’ll be upset that you’ve had to do that. Bloody awful situation for you both!

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:37

A580Hojas · 31/08/2022 20:22

She's been doing this for 11 years? poor girl!

I understand the sentiment. However, this has allowed her to have a very consistent relationship with her Dad....which has always been really good and I've kept a close eye on how he treated her. She was also VERY close to her grandfather and I believe has only started clashing with her grandmother now she's becoming older and has stronger opinions. The grandmother is someone who expects people to do exactly as she says or is not a nice person- at a younger age this wasn't an issue. For many years, DD has genuinely loved going there and I have been very careful to check this. She does talk to me, hence telling me when things started going wrong.

OP posts:
Bonheurdupasse · 31/08/2022 20:37

Ah
I actually meant to record the usual bullying from the GPS.

Creepymanonagoatfarm · 31/08/2022 20:45

At nearly 11 your dd will imo start learning to put her own 'wants' before those of others! Boost her self esteem op. She needs to know she can put herself feeling happy over the feelings of not very nice people..

Original poster
MatterOfThyme · 31/08/2022 20:49

Creepymanonagoatfarm · 31/08/2022 20:45

At nearly 11 your dd will imo start learning to put her own 'wants' before those of others! Boost her self esteem op. She needs to know she can put herself feeling happy over the feelings of not very nice people..

100% ! I keep telling her this but just the thought of it makes her cry. She absolutely hates upsetting people, she's very sensitive and empathetic. I wish they extended the same courtesy to her. But her father's view is that she needs to toughen up and say what she wants, and that actually she isn't being sensitive hurting her grandparents like this so she should take ownership of that choice. I just think she's so young to have to do that, I can't make him see his logic is flawed. He's currently refusing to talk to me, but will hopefully re-engage soon.

OP posts:
Krakinou · 31/08/2022 21:15

I guess her father grew up with these people full time and that’s made him who he is today. He is shifting the blame onto your DD, and making her responsible for standing up to his parents because he, as an adult, is still not able to stand up to his own parents.

I’m with the other posters - you need to step in even if your daughter is worried about the consequences. Tell them the travel is too much for her to manage now she’s starting secondary school, homework increasing etc. so she’ll be reducing visits and prioritizing the weekends her dad is actually around.

AnotherEmma · 31/08/2022 21:24

Your poor daughter Sad My advice:

Arrange therapy for your daughter, either through school or privately. She most definitely needs it.

Protect your daughter from contact with these toxic people - and that includes her father as well as her paternal grandparents. In practical terms, this means seeking advice from NSPCC and/or social services, seeking legal advice from an organisation like Child Law Advice or Rights of Women (both have good websites and free helplines), and telling your ex that you will refuse contact if he insists on DD spending time with her grandparents without him present. If he digs his heels in, offer mediation. You'd have to do that before going to court, anyway, but hopefully it wouldn't get to that.