Awful behaviour please help!

[Upstairsforthinking]

I've posted this in behavior/development but only recoeved one response.

Im in desperate need of some advice regarding my 5 year old DS behaviour.

He is an anxious little boy which was first picked up as things started opening up during the pandemic.

He dominates every single situation presented to him. He doesnt care for peoples feelings and seems to enjoy pushing people to the edge of sanity. He angers very quickly, he tells us he hates us, wants new parents, were horrible ect. He gets in our faces to try and act threatening. He has ruined every meet up with his friends, my friends, grandparents ect and can be really quite spiteful and hurtful to people.

Having said the above, he can also be very fun, intelligent, athletic, and sensitive. I know deep down that I've got a lonely little boy with no siblings or cousins, he is anxious and just crying out for attention but is also in need of some firm bounsaries but I have no idea where to start.

Please help. It's got to the point where If I were to punish everything he does wrong, I will be punishing him all day every day. I just need some suggestions of suitable disciple for a 5 year old which takes into account his anxiety.

Thanks for reading!

Sorry you're going through this OP - hopefully this gives you a bump.

I have no direct experience but have you spoken about this with GP / contacted a charity such as Mind to see what they'd reocmmend for a child of that age with anxiety? Is there a plan in place to manage his anxiety, or have you tried to work through what his triggers are (likely very difficult with such a young child but worth a shot if you haven't already I guess?) and how you can both help him to manage these in social situations.

There might even be children's CBT therapy sessions available where you live - probably a GP question though?

As you say, it's difficult to discipline when his behaviour stems from feeling anxious, and it might not even have the desired effect and could potentially make it worse.

Hope you get the answers you need OP!

Thank for for your response.

I dont believe for one second that anxiety is the cause for a lot of this behaviour but it is the cause for some so I need to be sensitive to that. I think I've let him get away with too much and now he really doesnt know how to behave.

He answers back constantly, says horrible things to me, throws things, argues and just doesnt follow instructions. He is always saying I'm nasty and will also go and inform other people that I'm nasty triggered by somthing as small as HIM losing at a game 🙄

Who picked up on his anxiety, is it a diagnosis ?

How does his anxiety display itself?

If it were me i would go back to basics and start with 1 or 2 main things that are most important to you and start to place importance on them

With our DS he knows any of his actions have a reaction.
Positive actions create positive reactions

Negative actions create negative reactions.

My main things are manners and kindness, if he is unkind he must apologise, if it continues he has a toy taken away or TV or something removed.

We praise him for his kindness and his manners all the time, it felt relentless when he was 2.5/3 years, but its paid off.

Maybe start with loads of praise when he does the little good things, when hes Kind, uses his manners, thinks of others.

What is your current model with regards to negative behaviour, what are his current boundaries??

Has hasnt got an official diagnosis. It was picked up when he started nursery and then noted straight away on starting school. The anxiety all stems around change. Change to routine really does make him worry.

If I'm honest, he doesnt have many boundaries. He is pulled up when he is displaying negative behaviour every time but in terms of consequences there aren't any. It's got to the point now that he is rude/ naughty most of the day so I feel as though I'm stuck in a bit of a rut as I dont know what behaviour requires consequences and what I should let go as pathetic as that sounds!

That sounds really hard. Sorry, I saw your original post and meant to come back to it.

I have a 6 year old who gets very anxious in similar situations (she’s adopted and it stems from attachment issues). The advice we’ve received is to actually be very firm and clear with boundaries because it makes her feel safer and makes life more predictable.

There are other things you can do to help manage the anxiety - telling him what’s going to happen when, giving him some tools to manage his feelings (can school help with this?) - but as you’ve rightly picked up, it’s not a reason to hold back on boundaries and consequences.

The Aha parenting website is a great place to start on techniques for positive discipline. Have a look at that.

How about the techniques you used when he was a toddler? I still find some of those useful even at the grand old age of 6!

To help him deal with change it might be good to create some sort of visual display of what your plans are each day. Maybe on post it notes or velcro unless he reads then a calendar. This could help him mentally prepare for what's to come. It can give him a sense of control.

You need to start establishing consequences. Constantly behaving in a negative way without being challenged could add to his anxiety - children thrive on routines and clear boundaries.

DS6 is quite similar (including the bit about not wanting parents).

I don't feel like we have all the answers but a combination of love and boundaries is good.

Acknowledging the situations he finds difficult (such as transitions and having to not touch/ mess with things in our case), helping as much as possible (as pp said, plenty of advanced notice of what will be happening is good).

Firm boundaries with consequences he cares about, consistently enforced. Lots of reassurance that we love him and everyone makes mistakes.

My son can be similar. I find he responds better when the moment is over. So when he's calmed down I will talk about what happened, why it is not okay. I will ask him questions about what happened. In instances where he has upset someone else I will take him away from the situation and ask what happened. Ask how we can make this better. Any time he does well with sharing or social problem solving I will give him a high 5 and point out what he did well. Also remember all behaviour is a form of communication. My son acts out when he's overwhelmed. He's not able to express that verbally yet. So I do it for him. I can see you're feeling state feeling, I know its hard to feel like that. Let's do this to help. It's okay to feel like that. It's not okay to negative behaviour instead you can do this.. Punishment doesn't really work with him, only temporarily. But like your son he would be punished all day long. Instead I try to think of natural and logical consequences if its possible. But the main thing is getting him involved in figuring out how to do things better and guiding him through this if he's struggling. Sorry I've rambled a bit!

Thank you all of the advice is helpful and appreciated!

Yes I've royally fucked up on the discipline side of things. I've spent his whole life ensuring that he knows he is loved and he is important and his feelings count that I've been too scared to actually discipline him incase he thinks I'm awful. Now he thinks that he is the ONLY person who matters in the world and couldnt give two hoots about anyone elses feelings. I know that is really pathetic but that's where I am.

I'm ready to start setting boundaries now and so is he. I've noticed a lot of his behaviour is because he wants attention. For example, of I am on the phone to a friend, he will immediately act up to get my attention. Another example is if I tall to his Dad, he will constantly intterpt and act out until we physically cant have a conversation.

Do you think confiscation is the way to go? I cant use time out as I would physically have to drag him to time out and I'm not prepared to do that. I'm also happy to use a reward chart for treata if it helps, that will also help with him thinking he is entitled to whatever he fancies everytime we go out!

Thanks again for responding everyone!

Why won’t you make him go to time out? Why should he carry on playing if he has ruined a game, been rude, hit someone etc. take him to time out and every time he leave it you return him to it.

you have created the monster by telling him how wonderful he is and never discipline him, it’s your job to take a stance and mean it. Say what you mean and mean what you say!

little Johnny, we don’t interrupt when mummy and daddy are talking…if he interrupts again he goes to time out and sits alone on the bottom of the stairs example.

Personally I wouldn’t punish him.

I would love bomb / affirm / praise good behaviour, and absolutely ignore him when behaving badly.

Or calmly say ‘I can’t understand you when you shout at me, use your happy voice please’ and calmly stick to it. Calmly.

Let him know what is going to happen. Say “let’s make a sandwich together, and then I am going to telephone Aunty / talk to your Dad , while I am doing that you can eat your sandwich / watch favourite tv / play Lego, and after I finish my phone call you and I can water the plants…”

Teach him about taking turns. Play a game with him and make a game of Your Turn / My Turn… with turns quite quickly. If he interrupts you talking say ‘Not your turn at the moment, please wait’ and ignore him. Don’t keep shushing him or peeling him off, just look away from him and ignore. Consistently. Then when you have finished say Ok, your turn now, what would you like to say?

I never did reward charts either (no rewards, no punishments, only the benefits and consequences of clearly explained behaviour).

Getting into a dynamic of battling with him just ramps it up, IME /IMO.

The reason I dont want to use time out it because I dont want to have to manhandle him to get him there. He is a tall 5 year old and I am a short adult. One of us will end up getting bumped or scratched. It's a shame because i think the removal of attention would do him good when he is acting out.

Yes I agree I have created a monster. That's clear to see. He is hard work all round, eating, he is very active, clingy, and extremely highly strung. I suppose I just find it a bit overwhelming now that he misbehaved so often as I dont know where to start. Might help if I list behaviours here so I can see what one is more urgent.

Interrupting
Consistently not doing as asked
Saying awful things about people
Aggression
Hitting
Throwing things in temper
Shouting
Always has to win whether it being in a game, disagreement ect

How is he at school?

OP, I think it's great that you are being so honest. You are more than aware that his behaviour is out of your control and you want to do something about it. That is a massive first step.

Be honest with him - explain that his behaviour is making you sad and things will need to change.
You must introduce consequences and boundaries. Right away. Expect all hell to break loose. It will get worse before it gets better because he will sense that you are gaining control and he won't like it one bit. But it will pay off in the end.

At the first sign of negative behaviour - give a warning, and a clear consequence. Make the desired behaviour very clear. Explain why, as simply as you can. Most importantly, follow through with the consequence. Don't give up because he kicks off, or because you are with friends or whatever. He needs to know what the expectation is, and that this will be consistent, wherever you are.

It will be hard, for a while. But you will crack it, if you are committed to it! You can still be mindful of his anxiety whilst having clarity and consistency when it comes to behaviour management.

He settled well at school but his teacher said he becomes very upset at any unexpected changes. He can remember even tiny details about his day and will notice is anything is even slightly different.

Yes, I can definitely see that he is badly behaved and I dont blame him for this at all. I'm the parent and it's my job to teacher him how to behave nicely. I hoping that I'll be able to report back in a few months to say things have improved 🤞 although he is stating year 1 in a couple of weeks so lets hope that doesnt escalate things too much!

“I've been too scared to actually discipline him incase he thinks I'm awful.”

He’s 5! You can’t be thinking about your own ego when dealing with a child that young.

Children will not like or appreciate why you enforce the boundaries but you must do it nevertheless in order for them to thrive. When children say ‘I hate you’ you simply respond ‘well I love you’ and that’s it. Rules and boundaries ensure that children are psychologically safe that there is an adult in charge. Not doing it creates out of control children who can’t self regulate which leads to all sorts of mental health issues.

Put your own feelings aside and set expectations, boundaries and rules. Stick to them. The child will settle down knowing that mum is in charge. Yes they’ll test the boundaries but that’s parenting I’m afraid.

Just to add to some of this advice, that you do need to pick your battles. Of this list, I would say calmly say I don’t like it when you interrupt and ‘great waiting your turn to speak’ ie always try and focus on the positive BUT I wouldn’t put a negative consequence in place at this point when there are things going on like hitting or aggression that are incredibly important.

And then I would just give him plenty of warning, so nothing comes as a surprise. ‘Don’t forget if you X I will Y’

’I’m going to count down from 3 and if you aren’t X then I will Y’.

And then 100% of the time you have to do what you’ll say you will do, that’s why for minor things you have to consider if they meet a threshold for intervention.

And make sure you keep having special times together.

You could try listening to the podcast ‘Unruffled’.

"Interrupting
Consistently not doing as asked
Saying awful things about people
Aggression
Hitting
Throwing things in temper
Shouting
Always has to win whether it being in a game, disagreement ect"

I could have written this list about my own 5yo DS. It's hard. I think his behaviour is not as extreme as you describe, perhaps because we do implement consequences. But it's challenging every single day and he never ceases to push the boundaries. I am beginning to suspect he may have ADD - certainly some of the techniques recommended for ADD kids are helpful with him.

What works (mostly) for us:

We have a clear, short list of behaviour rules. No hitting, no shouting, no name-calling, no pulling clothes etc. He knows them well. If he does it, he gets max one warning then the consequence. Usually losing bedtime story/ TV time/ Lego. I also avoid time out unless it's REALLY bad, because he's the size of a 7yo and dragging him to his room sets a bad example IMO.

We also have a list of good behaviour, like helping his siblings, tidying up, doing as we ask first time. If he does these unprompted, we give him a reward for his 'star jar' which he can trade in for stories/ treats/ days out even if he earns enough. So he always has a way to earn back lost privileges.

It's not perfect but it keeps his behaviour from getting out of control. I also talk to him about any issues at bedtime when he's generally calmer, reassure him that we love him and ensure that we are clear that the behaviour is bad, not the person, and HE has the power to change it. Every night he promises to try harder the next day - and ok it doesn't always turn out better, but he feels motivated to try.

You may find school is helpful, with the routine and discipline. My son behaves better for his teacher than he does at home!

I do think anxiety is the root of some of the issues, especially his reluctance to go out (whenever we suggest any activity, his first response is generally 'No!' even when we know he'll enjoy it.). He has a huge need to control what is happening. As pp said, giving advance warning or a choice over some aspect (shall we go by bus or metro?) helps.

Sending a big un-Mumsnet hug because I know how hard this kind of behaviour is. I've spent way too long on Google, I'm kind of hoping it's just immaturity but ... if it's not then I hope boundaries and consequences will help him work on his own self-control.

He's also a very intelligent, funny, loving child - it frustrates me so much that he cannot control his negative impulses. But I am trying to learn and work with him, find a path that helps him and ease our family life.

Hi OP,

It sounds like your DS might be neurodiverse -
ASD or ADHD. When he’s back in school maybe ask his teacher’s opinion once he’s settled, referrals take a long time
so good to do it early even if you’re unsure.

Meanwhile those are tricky behaviours you’re dealing with. My DS is similar with the moods and answering back. I don’t use time outs either as I didn’t find them effective when he was little. However I do use all sorts of consequences, and I’m not shy about reverting to them. He gets a warning and then if it carries on, the consequence happens, simple. If he says something in a rude way I ask him to try and say it again nicely. If he doesn’t then I carry on asking hun to try saying it nicely, generally getting angrier and he eventually does say it politely. I feel out of my depth a lot of the time and do lose it with him, but being firm helps feel I have a bit of a grasp on the situation at least.

I would be very suspicious of adhd or autism with the traits you have mentioned. If this is the case a different approach may be required. Too many demands and consequences may actually make things worse. That's not to say no boundaries or consequences at all but you have to be much more careful about when you apply them.

We have had suspicions about about ADHD or Autosm but his teacher has only seen a couple of traits such as anxiety around change/ need for rigid routine and a speech delay. He actually follows instructions very week at school and is hugely motivated by a reward chart that is used. At home we see these behaviours and more. It isnt always just when were in the house, he shows these behaviours when put with my friends, his friends and family. He also is a seriously picky eater and has issues with clothes and the way it feels on his skin.

Thays should say autism and very well at school

I'm struggling with my son's behaviour as well @Upstairsforthinking. He does have sensory processing disorder but he has zero impulse control, won't listen, bargains for everything. Tells me I'm not his boss etc.

He goes to an OT that have told me that he's very clever, a master manipulator and delegator... For him she has said I need to have very firm boundaries and not to be afraid to be strict. She emphasised that I'm the parent not him. she has suggested that have a reward system. So everytime DS does positive behavior he gets a marbles to put in a jar and then when he fills it he gets a special sticker (I've got him some ace cat ones). She also said to take them away if he's really not behaving but then give him double when he does it.
At the moment it seems to be helping although I find myself having to remove them quite a bit.

I struggle with enforcing but I did take him home on a recent day out which did shock him (and me)

I suggest a positive behaviour/sticker chart focus on 3 targets you want and one that is easily achievable. Praise and stickers all day long. Involve him actively in the process.focus on the good and avoid commenting on the bad unless it is cruel or dangerous. Never take the stickers back if he has earned them. Lots of advice on Google. Get him to decide on the rewards- my child loved small farm animals.

ASD looks a good call. You have done nothing wrong so don’t beat yourself up. If it is ASD, he will need to know his mum loves him unconditionally.