Please help me figure out what on earth to do about 11mo sleep

[MintGreenLife]

I feel completely at a loss as to where to go next…

Almost 1yo DS has always been a bad sleeper. Until he was 4mo we couldn’t get him to sleep in his cot at all and he had to be held for all sleep. At 5mo he began waking every 20-60 mins and this slowly progressed to again not going in his cot.

Now almost a year old, he has stopped feeding to sleep (bf) and needs an energetic jiggle at bedtime and night wakes for 20-30 mins to get him to sleep. Again this has turned into also not being able to put him in his cot as he wakes as soon as he is put down. At best he spends an hour or two at the start of the night in his cot, after that he sleeps in his pram (still frequently waking, and being rocked back to sleep). I can’t carry on like this. My entire evening is taken up by rocking him and trying to get him to bed, and it starts all over again in the night and I’m often up 1-2hrs just trying to get him back down again, and then he wakes very early in the morning. We tried putting him down awake last night and singing and patting to soothe him to sleep, but he just cries and cries!

please can someone help me figure out what to do! How do I move on from rocking, is he under-tired, overtired, what’s going on?! This is is current routine… fyi he has all his naps in his pram and I push him up and down on the gravel outside our house.

6ish wake up
9-9.30am ish first nap (1ish hours)
2.30am ish second nap (1ish hours)
7.30-8pm bed time

please help 😭

@EvergreenForest and yes you’re right, there’s crying every night at the moment, so what’s the difference 🤷🏻‍♀️

The difference is that when there’s crying and you are cuddling/holding them, they are not releasing cortisol in the way that they do when being left alone to cry. You are rightly following your instincts that your crying baby will feel abandoned and scared if left alone to ‘cry it out’.

It sounds like you’re doing wonderfully - you will get through this, it’s a really tough age.

One strategy to help them learn to self settle in a cot bed is to put them in and inevitably they’ll cry and you silently count to 30. After 30 seconds pick them up and cuddle, often they will appreciate the cuddle and then get restless and start squirming as though they want to escape and have freedom to self settle, at which point you put them back in the cot for them to do so. Once they start crying again, count to 30 then pick them up and repeat. You might have to do a few cycles but often they start to flap around in the cot and experiment more and more with self settling. Once they’re in the cot but not crying, a consistent back rub/bum pat/head stroke can help soothe them, and then you gradually work towards reducing this contact over a few weeks, eg a back rub turns into a hand on back which becomes lighter and lighter until it’s just hovering

Do you have lots of consistent bedtime cues? A song/gro clock/teddy/saying goodnight to a long list of things.

Another vote for controlled crying. It really really works and he is old enough to understand you haven't abandoned him.

We recently did it with my 10mo DD she was asleep in 20mins the first night, 5 mins every night for the next few days and now she goes happily in her cot and just falls asleep.

The key really is consistency, you can't chop and change / pick them up and give in as it sets them back. You can make the intervals shorter if you like, we did 1,3,5,8,10. It works best if you're not still feeding in the night (I am) but I kept the 3am feed and she just happily goes to sleep by herself straight after it. Cannot recommend it enough.

Did the same with my son he sleeps through every night unless he's unwell!

@Manamala thanks, think we will try the pick up put down method first and see how he responds.

@Inthesky42 thanks, I’m keen to try and find something that minimises the crying, so think we are going to try pick up put down first, and if picking up isn’t helping then we will try going in at intervals instead. Wish us luck!

Good luck OP.

My advice would be to stick to one method rather than change it half way through bedtime to give each one a chance at working.

With the controlled crying (if you do it) I was advised if it got to 45 mins and there was no sign of calming down or tiring to take him out of the room, have a break and then go back and try again. Thankfully it was pretty quick to work

This also might be worth a watch to you. Prof Wendy Hall has done some studies on sleep and this lecture has some useful info such as simple but consistent bedtime cues etc. also touches on some of the reasons children may struggle with sleep (only relevant from c23mins/30ish

Wow this sounds ridiculously difficult you must be absolutely exhausted. As other posters have suggested, you need to move on to another sleep crutch before being able to leave him in his bed so like patting his bottom and I'd also introduce a comforter/soft toy. Then when you leave him in the cot he can have his comforter/Teddy to sooth. It's not going to be easy at that age, he will likely be outraged but my god for your sanity and a couple of tough bed times I'd push through with some controlled crying, going in and out every few mins.
Good luck xxx

Oh yes to PP. We introduced a comforter at the same time and it did really help.

We also found when he got ill or upset in the day it helped to calm him down (we had to buy two just in case we lost one!)

Have tried a comforter but he just throws it across the cot in outrage! Have been trying to get him to sleep in his cot for over an hour now. He keeps nodding off momentarily and then waking himself up again crying 😭

@MintGreenLife I've been there and it's so so tough!

What are you trying with him? Can your DH take over for a bit to give you a break?

@EvergreenForest we tried pick up put down but he was getting angrier and angrier every time we put him back down. Now trying to soothe him by singing/patting/shhing at the side of the cot. He keeps dropping off to sleep for a minute or two and then waking himself up again screaming. He’s been doing this for about half an hour now. My DH has taken charge as I wouldn’t have been able to stay strong and not revert back to rocking. Just hope he finally drops off to sleep and stays asleep soon. Has been almost an hour and a half now 😭

You poor thing. It's so upsetting I know!

Are you leaving longer intervals in between each pick up and put down to give him a chance to get himself to sleep?

Sounds like DH has done the right thing stepping in and giving you a break

We were just picking him back up again if he was screaming, but if just fussing/crying leaving him, but it wasn’t helping to calm him down, so instead DH is staying by the side of the cot trying to soothe him. Surely this can’t go on much longer?! How long do we keep going for? He is actually falling asleep, but just not staying asleep!

A comforter won't comfort him if he hasn't learned to gain comfort from it. You can introduce it as part of his sleep associations but it won't work immediately.

Do not think you've failed at the cot naps because the second one didn't work today - re read your first post in response to me. He did his first decent cot nap EVER today! For 1 whole hour! That is a huge achievement! Well done! They will settle easiest for the first nap, the second will always be harder. What was his wake window between end of first nap and starting settling for second? It sounds like it was too long if he resisted being put down that much - I would try again with both naps in cot tomorrow but shorten the wake window between them, max 3 hours or less if he didn't tolerate that today.

If he doesn't sleep long enough for the second nap to tide him over to an early bedtime (wake window max 4.5 hours) I would do a 10 minute power nap in the buggy 2.5-3 hours after he wakes from the second nap, so he isn't overtired by bedtime. Wake him up at the 10 minute mark so he doesn't go into the deep sleep phase of the cycle.

Their wake windows aren't the same at all time points in the day. They need the shortest wake window between waking and first nap, then slightly longer one between first and second, then longest between second and bedtime. Go by his cues, even if you think he can't possibly be tired already, if he's showing you he his (rubbing eyes, yawning, fussing with no other reason), get him down for a nap and accept that at the moment he might need far more sleep than you think or might be the norm, if he's potentially built up a sleep debt.

I'm definitely not anti CC if needed but I think you should only go into it if you plan to see it through. It's not fair to start it and then give up when the screaming and distress gets too much. You need to be prepared for worst case scenario of several days, possibly up to a week of lots of crying. It would almost certainly work, and might quickly, but only if you stick to it. If either one of you can't face it, don't start it.

I personally would write off tonight as it sounds like you've tried a few different things which might have confused the message you're giving him, and it sounds like he was really overtired when you started trying to settle him if he was protesting that much. I would get him to sleep now however you can and restart with a clear plan tomorrow. Decide whether you are going to adopt a CC method or not, and if you are, which one. Then stick to that method and don't deviate from it. If you aren't going to do CC I would try a week or so of reducing wake windows to whatever he tells you he needs as per his sleep cues. Throw any expectation/preconception of timings out the window and work on all naps being in his cot. Introduce whatever sleep cues you want to use long term for every nap and bedtime (comforter, white noise) and aim to get to a point in a week or so where he is consistently napping in the cot without being rocked to sleep. If he can learn this his night time settling will almost certainly get better too (so long as your wake windows aren't too big and he isn't overtired - 2/3/4 is a rough guide for a 2 nap schedule, which most 11 month olds would usually still need, compared to yours currently which are 3/4/4).

Bedtime by 7pm, when he wakes get up with him and have an active morning, get outside if possible before first nap, first nap starts no earlier than 10am,let him sleep as long as he needs, any further naps end by 5pm absolute latest.

However, your biggest problem is that he has developed some really big sleep associations, the rocking etc. 11 months is old enough to learn to self settle so look at sleep training, cio is not for everyone but at that age it will be the quickest to work and yield the least amount of tears overall, look at it as you're giving him the tools and the opportunity to learn to fall asleep by himself, if you're always helping him he will struggle to do it himself. And as long as you know he's fed, not in pain, clean, good temperature, all needs are attended to so any crying he is doing is purely out of protest due to him being pissed off that he's not getting the rocking etc that he is used to.
Good luck.

@Maybee21 on that basis, if he's waking at 6 you're expecting him to do a minimum 4 hour wake window until first nap - he will be overtired, lose the plot and won't have a chance of self settling. Lots of babies at 11 months wouldn't manage a 3 hour wake window from wake to first nap? Equally if you let him sleep until 5pm and then try and put him to bed at 7pm, there is no way he will have built up enough demand to actually sleep? I don't think what you've suggested sounds quite right, it goes against the grain of what most standard sleep schedules for an 11 month old would suggest.

OP this schedule is a recipe for disaster, please ignore.

Agree with everything @MGee123 has said in her post above

CC worked wonders for me but it absolutely has to be something you and your DH agree on the plan upfront and don't veer from it. Some great suggestions in that post.

Mostly agree with 'do not think you've failed'

You haven't-- an hour in the cot it amazing!

Really hope he's down now and you can get some sleep yourself.

I'm already upstairs 3 times for my nearly 6 month old who has a nasty cold so I'll also be up overnight if you need to rant!

You are describing my son!
We dropped the morning nap at 10
months (or rather, he did) and it sorted out the sleep issues we were having then. We have a very set routine where we go to toddlers or the park or whatever in the morning then he has a nap. If he falls asleep in his pram on the way back from wherever then so be it. He sleeps 1.5-3 hours with an average of about 2 hours now that he's 20 months but at that age he was doing 2-3 in one nap. He would then sleep 11 hours overnight. To this day he has never slept in a cot. He sleeps in a bed and that's it. So we have a toddler floor bed with a normal mattress and he'll sleep in that or our bed. He sleeps through but will wake at the end of every 3rd sleep cycle just enough to check we're near but he does not like to be cuddled / too close. Not sure that's really advice 🤔 I'd try consolidating to one nap and have a significant gap between nap/bedtime. I'd also try staying with him through the first sleep cycle (every 45 mins) even if you go and come back. You should notice him coming around slightly and I use this opportunity to shush him or place a hand on him so he knows I'm still there. This keeps him sleeping longer. I can then repeat this if he wakes in the night but also I'm close enough to him to touch or shush him in the night (his bed is in our room).

@Arthursmom i think we might try doing one nap and see if it helps! How did you get him to settle on a floor bed?

@MGee123 @EvergreenForest so last night was absolutely horrible! He finally went to sleep at midnight, it took 3hrs!! Is that normal?! It was so frustrating as he was falling asleep from about an hour, but he had the hiccups and kept waking himself up and would start crying again. To be honest I wouldn’t have kept going were he not actually falling asleep. We sat by his side and sung, shhhed etc to remind him that we were there. After he finally fell asleep I thought he would be out for the night then, but he woke 3.5hrs later and it took 1.5hrs to resettle and fall back asleep - same issue as before, by 45 mins he was falling asleep, but kept jolting awake.

I guess I have to do this for his nap today too 😭 he only slept 6.5hrs over night, but seems his happy self this morning and doesn’t appear tired!

I think OP, I would at this stage move to Ferber. He is obviously finding it difficult to calm down with you in the room. My son was the same at this age. I did gradual retreat at 6 months which worked but when he regressed at 12 months it didn't-he knew I was in the room and simply wanted to be picked up and rocked to sleep.but Ferber worked a treat.

I honestly honestly think there will be far less crying and a quicker result with it. At this point-you've tried other methods and they haven't worked

I would suggest you and DH get on the same page tonight and absolutely rigidly stick to it. Usual bedtime routine, then a cuddle and into the cot. Leave the room. You can go in at intervals of your choosing but do make sure you increase the time-if you keep going in every couple of minutes you're not giving him a chance to settle himself

You also need to work out what will be better for him when you go in-do you pick him up, cuddle for 30 seconds and put back down and leave or do you just go in, pat and soothe. Essentially you don't want to wind him up so whichever will be easier for him,

Then when he wakes in the night, repeat it.

Have you watched the YouTube video I posted upthread? From 23 minutes-this is a professor talking about sleep crutches and why teaching self soothing is important. This may give you some reassurances.

Ultimately, it's up to you and I quite understand why you're on the fence, I was too with my first DS. Now that I've done it and I see how well it worked, how there was much less crying and how happy he is to go to bed (and still cries and calls for us if needed), I'm quite relaxed about doing it with number 2 when he gets a little older.

Wake windows are not evidence based, sleep should not be on schedule, it should be when baby is showing you they're becoming sleepy. Ideally babys pattern will adjust itself so that they will not need to nap anywhere near 5pm but if you research dlmo then it becomes clear why it works. Just do some research.

😂Just do some research. Evidence based research, not "mummy blogs" where "this worked for me so it'll work for you"

To the OP, check out a Facebook group called "safe sleep and baby care, evidence based support" and you will find all the research and evidence you need to sort out your issues.
To anyone that feels the need to disagree, just do a bit of evidence based research. And evidence is not "what worked for me"

@MintGreenLife stories and calm time in the bed. We found that he won't wind down unless we're in the bedroom so it has to happen in there, dim light and stories and calm toys. I lay down and let him do whatever process he needs then he comes in the bed too. Sometimes I pretend to be asleep and other times we just talk / babble until he drops off. Now he tells us when he wants to go to bed so he obviously recognises when he's tired. He has free play and is often outside up until bedtime if possible as I find being outside also settles him better . No real evidence base just trial an error for us. His awake window at that age was 4-5 hours but would need a cuddle and rest about 3 hours in but wouldn't fall asleep. After nap the awake window was much bigger 5 hours and now it's 6-7. From what I've read he is on the low end of sleep hours but is within 'normal' range. We did try the huckleberry app and still use it for tracking his sleep but the suggestions on extending sleep didn't work. After months of tracking he sleeps 11-12 hours every 24 and that's just him.