Pant wetting / lying / consequence.

[Horsesforcourses23]

Please can I have POV.

My 12 yr old nephew lives with me and has done for several years. He was removed from home for safety reasons. For years I have battled with him still wetting his pants. I have done everything, positive re enforcement, rewards, taking him to the Doctor and hospital etc. There is nothing medically the matter. It has become apparent that he tends to do it more so if he is giddy / excited and or doing something he does not want to stop doing, i.e. playing on the playstation etc.

The last 12 months have been really hard because nothing I do seems to work and I am really frightened he will get bullied at school because of it. He knows he does it and has acknowledged that sometimes he just does it because he can't be bothered going to the toilet. As a rule he has terrible toilet habits and I do believe it was because he was never taught them properly as a child.

Anyway he has a "reward" trip with school this week and last time he wet himself I said if it happened again then I would not let him go on the trip because I can't trust him to not do it on the day trip with school. Weeks have gone by and he has been fine and then this weekend he has wet his pants but then lied about it to try and cover it up.

I am so upset because he has been doing really well and he was beyond excited for this trip. I have told him he can't go. I spent most of last night crying and every time I think about it today I feel guilty.

Am I being too harsh or do I actually need to follow through and see if a really hard punishment will work? I am more cross he lied to be honest. :-(

I wouldn’t cancel the trip. But perhaps move forward to helping him to take responsibility for the consequences- eg washing his own clothing and changing himself so he doesn’t smell or feel he has to hide it.
Has he had support to deal with the trauma he has experienced prior to being removed from his birth home? It could lie at the heart of his issues…
meantime just talk to him and explain your concerns about hygiene and him getting bullied but move away from the shame and shaming he experiences as a result of wetting and help him become responsible. Get a wet bag for in his school bag and teach him how to do the laundry.

Have you ruled out constipation and UTI? If yes, I would move on to attachment issues and repost this on either fostering of the adoption board.

Banning him from the trip sounds incredible unkind.

Presumably he's doing this either because of a medical issue, or because of trauma related to his difficult family situation.

Either way, punishing him is seriously not on.

You need to help him with strategies to manage if he does have an accident, and of course talk to the school.

Sounds psychological possibly? My friends have two traumatised adopted children who do similar things because they don't feel worthy enough amongst other things that affect their everyday lives - does he have therapy?

I would seek professional support / referral to an enuresis clinic. Nocturnal bed wetting is very common at this age though daytime accidents are less common. The changes that come with puberty are also likely to help. Re the trip I should have a discreet word with the staff about the need to remind him to use the facilities.

You should let him go on the trip. The lying was a result of your disproportionate threat. Punishment is completely inappropriate and you should change your decision and let him go.

As part of that, I’d suggest a discussion about strategies for the day eg go to the loo every time the option is available, don’t drink very large quantities of liquids all at once, maybe a change of clothes in his bag just in case. I would explain that you thought the trip might be a bad idea because he might wet himself but that you’re happy for him to go after all if he can agree to follow the strategies.

Have you seen the gp to rule out a physical cause?

Also, if the worst happens, he won’t be the first or the last 12yo to wet himself on a school trip. These things happen. The best you can do is help him avoid it, but banning him from the trip is much too much.

Please don't ban him from the trip. He's done really well for weeks. Because he's really been trying. Don't let one slip up be a cause for punishment. And of course he lied. You didn't mean to, but you set him up to lie. Because you made it not just that you would be disappointed if her slipped up, or that he would be ashamed, but that all his effort over weeks would have been for nothing.

Give him a big hug. Tell him how proud you are at how well he has been doing for those weeks. And because he did so well, you're going to let this one accident slide. But it's really important that he knows, and you know, that he can do this. Because he has shown he can. Then buy him a watch with an alarm to remind him to go to the toilet.

You're punishing a child for wetting the bed?!

No wonder he tries to cover it up if he's getting threats and has to listen to you sobbing over it.

You've 100% set him up to fail here, this is very unkind IMO.

He tried really hard and did really well, and then one small slip up means he doesn't get to do something school have put on as a reward for him. So not only is all his hard work at home now pointless, all his work at school means nothing too.

It sounds like he needs therapy.

I really relate and I really sympathise (with you both). Our DD is similar and we had the all clear from a paediatrician who told us she was being stubborn but then we got a second opinion from a paediatrician who specialises in continence and she said we didn’t give her nearly enough water to drink so her bladder (which is a muscle) hadn’t properly developed or been trained. This also leads to constipation which causes problems too. Since then we have really improved (although not completely solved) things by really upping water intake and it has been a game changer. Punishment just doesn’t work and I know it’s frustrating but maybe there’s a new way to think about it? Best of luck.

You cannot expect him to improve if you are punishing/ withholding. You have to work together to find a solution particularly if it is emotional which it sounds like it may be. My concern is that you are giving mixed messages/ shame based outcomes for something he finds difficult to control. If you had poor bladder control as an adult would punishment work for you?

Fully agree with this. In simple terms if it were a puppy you would never ever punish for inappropriate soiling - you would work to resolve it through postive association. You need to re-approach it with no consequences as consequences dont work clearly.

He lied because he is desperate to go on the trip. I think you are being a bit harsh by assuming that he has control over it. I think it's possible he has less control than you think. He may grow out of it - night-time bed-wetting for example is a hormonal developmental thing. My cousin wet the bed till she was 16 - yes, really. Her parents punished, ignored, bought bed alarms, everything, but nothing ever worked until she just gradually grew out of it. I suspect your boy will do the same.

Send him on the trip. Tell him he must try to go to the loo as often as possible just in case. Try being kind about this.

My internet keeps crashing, so if it posts multiple times I am really sorry!

Thank you for all your replies.

1. Medical have all been ruled out, we have been through every department at the hospital and they do not believe there is any underlying cause.
   The only thing that has popped up here is that he does not drink enough, i.e. I will give him a drink at breakfast and then he will not drink all day, so they said his bladder does not get full enough for him to feel the need to wee so it just trickles out if that makes sense. So now he drinks more and to be honest this seems to have resolved a lot of the incidents at school.

2. Counselling is just on going for his experiences. He does talk to me about his sessions if he wants to but I am conscious that is his time and it’s up to him to share.

3. He does know to change his clothes etc and pop them in the washing when it happens.
   We have long and open discussions about why this happens and what we can do to prevent it. I have tried the watch and alarm clock and if it goes off when he is on the computer for example he just knocks it off and carries on.

He has said to me before either he does not want to que up at school at break time, or for example he said yesterday he did not want to come in from playing outside. I asked why and he just said he couldn’t be bothered walking back. I told him I wouldn’t have kept him in and he could have gone straight back if that was what worried him but he said he knew that. The park is about a 5 minute walk away.

He has done really well for weeks, and I have positively re enforced this, I always do when he does well and I am very empathic. He will do well for weeks and then I will have 3 – 4 day’s where it is continuous.

I really have tried everything everyone has suggested, I know truly that it was my fault he lied because of the threat of the trip.

This has gone on for years and I am at a loss as to what to do.

You've 100% set him up to fail here, this is very unkind IMO.
He tried really hard and did really well, and then one small slip up means he doesn't get to do something school have put on as a reward for him. So not only is all his hard work at home now pointless, all his work at school means nothing too.
It sounds like he needs therapy.

I accept the consequence was harsh. - however it is not one slip up at all. It is repeat slip up's all the time. Weeks will go by and the same behaviour occurs and this has gone on for year. He has counselling for everything that has gone on. I am not an unkind person. I am trying my very best.

You need to post on the adoption board OP. This is a child who has experienced trauma and this will no doubt be linked to this. You may find others with similar experiences and ideas about how to deal with trauma-based issues.

And I agree with everyone else, don’t cancel the trip.

I'm sure you are doing your best -it is hard! My DS8 is the same - will go for weeks with no problems, then recently wet his pants on a play date. He is younger, but sounds like we've followed a similar process - lots of talking about what he needs to do (drinking plenty etc) and rewards, but still have accidents when he 'can't be bothered' or is too engrossed in something. I would still go with allowing him to go on the trip - it is a school reward, and he has presumably earned this. I have just come to the conclusion, having battled with this since potty training, that only time (and encouragement/frequent reminders) will achieve anything (and I am probably more of a soft touch and couldn't handle the disappointment of my DS!)

Why the fuck are you punishing a traumatised child? This is obviously a result of the trauma and not something he can control. Get him some proper therapy.

I am not an unkind person. I am trying my very best.

This is obvious from your posts, the fact that you took responsibility for your nephew and your strong reaction to having banned him from the trip (crying and feeling guilty). I'd suggest you listen to your own cues on this and back down about the trip. No good will come from stopping him going.

Agree with PP above about talking to the teacher- they may be able to keep an eye on him and remind him to go to the loo and also help out if he has an accident. I sincerely doubt he will be the first boy they've taught who struggles with this.

The "can't be bothered" explanation sounds like very low self esteem and poor impulse control, both of which could be explained by his difficult start.

I taught at school where a boy would withhold his faeces, by 13 he had the nickname ‘shitpants’, No therapy physical or psychological worked. Then around 14 he met a girl, almost overnight everything changed. He took pride in his appearance. All behaviour serves a purpose.

I agree with the vast majority of others saying to let him go on the trip. Have a conversation with the school about how best to manage it and with him about what steps he takes if he does have an accident,

I highly doubt he wets because he can’t be bothered. He might think this is the reason but I think it’s probably a lot deeper than this. I wouldn’t personally use punishments with this type of issue as I think that approach increases feelings like embarrassment and shame. However I can see why you took that route after trying so hard to deal with the issue.

I just think things like this, that stem from neglect or early trauma, take a long time to deal with sadly.

Sorry OP but this really doesn’t sound like something to punish him for. This is clearly a result of childhood trauma that he needs both help and support to get through from you and the school together. No 12 year old would wish this upon themselves. Maybe he was too scared to use the toilet whilst younger, maybe he was harshly punished for something toilet related, we don’t know but from an outside perspective it’s sad rather than rebellious.

I know you are doing your best. It's a big thing you are doing, well done. Have you had enough trauma informed parenting training?

Some thoughts-

Celebrate his achievement in staying dry for weeks, rather than punishing the mistake.

Remember he's likely to try and sabotage things that are important to him. Don't help him with the sabotaging! He might sabotage because he feels he doesn't deserve it, or because it's easier to get the disappointment over with by pre emoting it, than risk being disappointed at the last minute.

The sensation of wetting is familiar to him. His earliest experiences normalised it, and make it feel safe. It's like comfort eating.

Of course you are not a bad person OP. You are clearly trying your best. I agree with other PP suggesting to go over to the adoption board for more specific trauma advice.

Does he have a toilet pass at school to allow him to go whenever he wants.