6 years of broken sleep – is this normal?

[WhenWilliSleep]

Hi,

I've never written a post on here :-) Hoping for either some reassurance or tips.

I have 2 DDs, 3 and 6. And majority of the time one or both are up in the night, at least once but usually more – when my youngest wakes she's then up from 12 or 2am and then comes in our room every hour after.

Then if the eldest is woken too, they both play together and where she's so tired, eldest DD is difficult to reason with and gets angry about being made to go back to bed.

I know I'm not thinking rationally as I'm so tired, and also have PMS lol, but I'm struggling so much to be a good mum, I lose my temper and shout. I can't reason with myself that they're not doing this deliberately and I (silently) resent my friends whose kids generally sleep really well. I feel like we're doing something wrong or that this is our life for the duration (until they're teenagers maybe?!)

They have very stable bedtime routines, and go to bed pretty well, they just have trouble going back when they wake in the night.

Basically I just want to know I'm not alone! And that I'm not an awful mum for struggling on massively broken sleep. We're very fortunate in our lives, I have a fairly helpful husband, and I work for myself part time so I can nap if I have time and need to–so I also feel like I'm massively ungrateful and moaning about nothing. I just need sleep so much!

Also just watched the Lost Daughter on Netflix which I think depressed me lol as I could relate to quite a bit :-( Not all but I won't ruin it!

Thanks everyone, that's a lot to unpack lol

At 6 I would be handing out consequences..maybe you will be too tired to take them to x activity.
Being tired affects the whole family. And all the relationships within it ime.

@Santahasjoinedww thank you for your message :-)
We try to do consequences but we are terrible at following through, I know that. Def something we've not helped ourselves with. Sometimes they just shout back they don't care lol

Are they sharing a room? If not there would be no playing together in the middle of the night! I appreciate this may be harder to control if they do a share a room.

I would just keep returning them to bed. Tell them they don't have to go to sleep, but they must lie still and keep quiet. Definitely consequences for the older one of they muck about - but maybe some sort of reward chart for not disturbing others if they do wake might work better for both of them. You can't stop a child waking, you can definitely train them to not wake others!

Maybe think about coming up with ways for the 6yo to get herself settled again - meditation, relaxation etc.

@Seeline not sharing but sometimes the youngest refuses to let us shut her door (she's just started getting scared at night) and so when eldest goes to loo she wakes up and I think she thinks it's morning. Eldest has a digital clock but doesn't look at it lol. They then play on the landing!

They will go back but I am up and down like a yoyo putting them back to bed, rarely do they stay there.

Reward chart is a good shout, have tried that in past, just doesn't seem to last haha

Have you heard a Lyndsey Hookway? She seems to be the guru of children and normal sleep. She is on Instagram and has a book called "Still Awake" might help x

What time do they go to bed?

@RedRobyn2021 ooh fab will look her up thanks!

@roses2 they have always needed an early bedtime, they get ratty if they go later, and it's just not worked for us –I know everyone will scream later bedtime... they are in bed by 6/6.30 latest so I expect them to wake early (6 ish) They're both extremely active, they don't stop - like most kids I expect, they just seem over tired all the time (prob due to the broken sleep lol)

I'm guessing from the responses that most people are getting a full nights sleep with kids this age...? LOL

That's a very early bed time for a 6 year old.
Maybe a new routine of a later night for the eldest might work?

I've just seen that you don't think that will work but I really think that's part of the problem.

My just turned 7 year old is still out at activities at 6.30 two nights a week!

The bed time seems an hour too early, they won't have enough time to actually wind down from the day. You also need consequences and to actually follow through, religiously so they know it's real.

My 6 year old is in bed at 8pm and up at 6am. Would definitely try for later bedtime for 6 year old and book her into sports clubs!

It seems to me that your dc might operate naturally on BST, when the clocks change it might feel more bearable to you to keep them on the routine they’re on now so don’t try and adjust them to the new timings and put them to bed at 7pm. When the clocks go back keep to 7pm iyswim.

I’m convinced that DD’s body clock fits better naturally with the winter clock and all our biggest sleep issues are in the summer. It’s getting easier as she gets older and has more concept of time.

Aside from that you’re completely within the realms of normal territory (unfortunately). It’s knackering and relentless and these partying sleepless dc are hardcore torturers.

We went to a sleep clinic when my DC was 3. I was very skeptical about their ideas (reward charts, putting them straight back to bed etc) but it did work.

Covid and illness sent us back to square 1. He's now 6 and was regularly getting into bed with us in the early hours, so none of us were getting a decent nights sleep. So a couple of weeks ago we said that he needed to stay in his bed all night because that's what "big boys" do - he's stayed all night in his bed since!

Also recommend a gro clock so there's no excuse for getting up before morning.

I also have a 3yo who isn't the best sleeper but she's recently got a lot better. My other child is only 18mo and awful so I can't compare to having a 6yo. What I spyglass say is that both mine go to bed at 7.30/8 and wake at 6.45/7am, neither naps. If we put them in bed earlier they do seem more alert when they wake in the night. 6 seems very early even for the 3yo.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this though, it's hard enough having gone through 3 years of it.

From the subject line, I thought I was going to say hang on in there, mine magically cracked it at four when I thought I would never have a proper night’s sleep ever, but six makes me think it’s definitely time for something more proactive.

What’s waking the six year old up? If she’s always up to go to the loo in the night, I would try to address that and see if it had a positive knock on effect. How long do they have between dinner and bedtime? If there was a longer gap between eating and going to bed, and not having anything to drink right before sleeping, then maybe she wouldn’t need the loo in the night and that then wouldn’t wake her sister and you! Fully appreciate some people always need to get up in the night no matter what age, but worth a shot I think.

As for going in to settle them, try going in like a zombie - no emotion, even no talking if you can. Make it boring and repetitive so there is no nighttime drama that gets them excited again. The more stimulation we get in the hours we should be asleep, the more impossible it gets to go back to sleep. It is okay to give consequences the next morning rather than in the heat of the moment. Six is old enough for most to follow a discussion of ‘what happened last night is not acceptable, and that means no _ today’.

Good luck. You will be a new woman when they sleep through!

Thanks s o much everyone. Yes the days they sleep through I literally feel on top of the world!!

I think I will try the later bedtime for the eldest, it's mainly needing the loo that wakes her so thats a really good point about time between tea and bed @CatatonicLadybug

I think I might just need to ride it out with the 3yo. Maybe try the reward chart with her too. My eldest didn't sleep through the night til she started school – we had a lot of 5am starts and we tried gro clocks (she could reset it lol) and charts, and later bedtimes etc. I think we've prob just tried too much!

@greyinganddecaying we find events like that throw it out too, and if you let them sleep even one night in the bed they want it every night! We stopped that about 6 months ago so we've had some success!

Just downloaded that book @RedRobyn2021

@Cornettoninja thank you for the reassurance and good point about clocks going back. We have a holiday in April coming up so I really just want it to be ok, as it's such a lot of money to spend being sleep deprived lol!

Sorry if I forgot to tag anyone, I really appreciate your messages xxxx

We had child gates on the kids bedrooms until they were about 4 so they couldn't just wander about in the middle of the night! That might stop the playing on the landing.

I agree 6pm seems very early for a 6yo. What are your evening routine times like - getting in, eating, clubs etc? A later bedtime might also mean the 6 to doesn't need the loo during the night if there is a bigger gap between evening meal/drink and bed.

6pm seems super early. 6pm-6am is 12 hours. My 1 year old only sleeps 10hrs max overnight ie 8.30pm-6.30am. ( and a nap usually)

www.nhs.uk/live-well/sleep-and-tiredness/how-much-sleep-do-kids-need/

You can see here that 10hrs for 3 year old and 9hrs 6 year of might be all they need. So 6pm bed would be realistic they are awake by 3/4am.

You sound a bit of a soft touch.

When you frame it like that @Caspianberg that makes total sense,. Now I feel bad lol.

@user1493494961I wish I was a soft touch - did you not read the temper part . But yeah, perhaps there is a sense that they can walk all over me. I find it all a hard balance –I have an a Authoritative approach, so we listen to them but also expect respect. I dunno, it's all a minefield, I just wanna be a good mum but I think I only manage that a small part of the time

I think it’s pretty normal to still have disturbed sleep at this stage. I’ve always made sure I meet my children’s needs in the middle of the night. However I would have absolutely zero tolerance for playing in the middle of the night. Your youngest may be too small to fully understand but your six year old isn’t. I’d absolutely not be tolerating this. I also kept a stair gate on my youngest’s door at this age so he could call for me but couldn’t walk around the house. I’d agree with others re trying a later bedtime for your oldest even if that involves some quiet playtime in their room or reading for a little while when your youngest goes to bed. I’m still up most nights and mine are a similar age but my oldest now sleeps through the majority of the time. I think you need some clear boundary setting about what is and isn’t ok at night. Good luck.

Agree zero tolerance for playing etc in the night.

Night time is for sleeping, not playing, back to bed.
Rinse and repeat.

As others say, reassure (older one) they do t have to sleep but they do have to stay in bed, stay quiet and rest.

You could consider an audio book or relaxing music. Although that can become a prop they’re sure they need to get back to sleep.

I agree with others older one doesn’t need that much sleep and starting later might help a lot.

Also fresh air and exercise. Mine sleep much better when we’re able to be outside and active plenty (hard this time of year).

My younger one (also three) isn’t great. Drinks a lot which makes him need to pee. The drinking is 50/50 genuine thirst and habit (like a dummy he finds it soothing). So I’ve not got the heart to go cold turkey.

I saw a sleep consultant and her best advice was a lot of night waking is emotional. Need to make sure they fully express their emotions during the day (don’t distract from tantrums) and to supportively listen to (not solve) tears in the night.

So wakes are met with calm. ‘Back to bed.’ ‘Mmm hmmm I know it’s not always easy to sleep, it is easy to lie quilted though’.
Calmly, softly rinse and repeat, Even if they get upset.

You have to psyche yourself up for a few nights of it getting worse before it gets better.

Maybe try moving bedtime back to 7.30pm, and see if after 1 week it makes any difference. The 6 year old might need to gradually move to 7.45/8pm etc until you get what works best.

Also, when is dinner time currently. It’s reasonable for a child to be hungry after 12hrs no food, so if dinner is too early, maybe they are also waking hungry?

Thanks all.

So just to be clear, they are not allowed to play in the night!! There was one night we were so tired we assumed it was morning and so it was 10 mins before I woke enough to check the clock and see it was 3am

We calmly take them back to bed each time, although I do sometimes lose it with the eldest because she can be so rude (it's like she's sleep talking or something, she can't cope with being tired herself)

I hear everyone on the late bedtimes but all I can say is when we have done that they can't get off to sleep then and they're up and down the stairs til 9pm sometimes. Maybe cos they're not used to it.

They get plenty of fresh air and play, and lots of emotional attention, love and cuddles.

After school/nursery we sometimes run errands at the shops (usually finds this results in tired tantrums and this is at 5pm!!) or they play together or see family.

We have tea early around 5pm cos they are Starving!! They then have a little snack before bed. They're not big drinkers really but seem to want to drink at bedtime so will make sure they do so more before and maybe take their drinks out their room?

Then we have a bit of tv time then we head up for bath, teeth, pj's at around 5.50/6pm and then we each pick a kid for story time then lights out around 6.15/6.30pm.

That part seems nailed so reluctant to change that but guess I need to if I want sleep lol xxxx