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Parenting

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I think my ex is smacking/hitting our two year old

74 replies

Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 04:38

So, a few months ago my ex drove our son and I to a paediatric appointment (I don’t drive) and on the way home our son had a major tantrum because he didn’t want to leave the attractive toys in the office behind. My efforts to calm our son weren’t working, and my ex lost his cool. He started shouting at our son, which of course upset him even more, then started saying he was going to smack him and proceeded to count down the seconds. I went into a shock and quickly started holding my sons hand which seemed to stop the tantrum (didn’t work before, which makes me think he has been smacked before). Another time he gave us a lift somewhere and our son had a tantrum, the same thing happened and I could see my ex’s hands go behind the car seat and he was touching my sons legs. I got to anxious and I told him to just drop us off at the train station that was just there. When I confronted him, he denied denied denied that he’s ever hit him. He spends every weekend with our son and I have him during the week, so I’m not there to see what’s going on, but his 12 year old daughter (from another marriage) is also there on weekends.

One time he helped us with shopping (I now do shopping online to avoid needing use of his car/being in this predicament), my son tried to grab one of the little croissants out of the shopping bag and my ex picked up him by his wrist. I was in complete shock and I told him no more sleepovers, to have less time together etc. My ex was making out that lifting him up was an accident, he felt bad for hurting him, that he loves his son and would never hurt him. I said to him it wasn’t ok to hit him (as I believe he had from the times I heard him threaten to) and reiterated no more sleepovers while his daughter was there (because I wanted her to know it wasn’t ok if he was doing this). He turned to his daughter and went ‘we haven’t been hitting him, have we?’ To which she responded no but I don’t know if she is being coerced. He’s a very manipulative, controlling person.

Fast forward to last week, my son had a tantrum because I told him we had to walk down the hill and not use his scooter because it wasn’t safe (it was a steep hill leading into a road). I had shopping bags and I kept trying to get my son off the ground because he was having a major tantrum about not being able to go down the hill on his scooter. We were there for half an hour and I felt like crying because I couldn’t get him up to go home. I phoned my ex to ask if he could have a chat with him and that maybe it would help (grandma in a different time zone so wasn’t possible). My ex said ‘you need to smack him’, I just didn’t respond to the command and let my ex speak to him over the phone. I could hear his 12 year old daughter in the background so I know she heard him say this. I sent him a message that night saying I hope he hasn’t been smacking him and he responded to say he hasn’t - why is he telling me to then?

Then the other day, my son was looking out the window and started saying ‘daddy hit Arthur there’ (where my ex usually parks his car). It was completely out of the blue. I asked him where did daddy hit you and he kept pointing to his tummy. And then also said ‘butt’ and pointed to his bum. He was telling me to ‘take doctors’ as whenever he’s had an accident and been hurt, I’ve taken him in to be checked over. I then tried to get my phone, to get evidence of him saying it, as I thought it would be necessary if I need to file concerns for his safety. I don’t know if it sounds like I was talking him into it in the recording, I just needed a repeat of what he told me himself. He kept saying ‘susy helped’ him in the car and that he smacked the car. He was basically saying he was smacked for hitting my ex’s car and that his half sister was comforting him. I spoke to my own mum about it and she told me to hold off for now and play by ear before doing anything about it.

I had more of a think today and I said to my ex that I don’t feel comfortable handing him over this weekend if I don’t feel my son is safe. My ex kept reiterating that he’s never hit him, that he’s a good man, that there are witnesses there every weekend to see he isn’t being hit or smacked. When I mentioned all the times he said he would smack him I was called evil and a liar, so he is attempting to gaslight me. He started saying that his daughter was a witness that nothings ever happened but then I thought to myself she was there on speakerphone when he told me to smack him.

What should I do here? Am I overreacting or is this necessary to keep my son away? Should I contact DSS? He kept saying that if I wouldn’t let him take our son tomorrow then he would contact police and DSS himself.. we don’t have a court order or anything in writing about custody. I know that corporal punishment is technically legal but I do not feel comfortable sending my son there.

I should also mention, that he has a recording of me slapping him during our time together (at the end) and he always holds it over my head with custody, DSS etc. He was abusive to me but he chose which recordings stay or go. I am obviously concerned about how the recording is being used to manipulate me but I don’t feel like I can let it get in the way of protecting my son. Thoughts please.

OP posts:
Kittykat93 · 31/12/2021 08:19

[quote Redpoppies92]@Kittykat93
I think it says more about you than me that you would assume I made the phone call in an attempt to intimidate or scare my son. I could hear the whole phone call between them and nothing was said that would warrant even hanging up.[/quote]

Fair enough but if my ex was saying on the phone 'just smack him' I'd be horrified and yeah I'd hang up. I'm pretty confident and content with my parenting abilities and I protect my child so don't come at me with the 'it says more about you than me'. You need help, legal advice, your ex sounds like an abusive piece of shit and there is a real chance he could screw your poor wee baby up for life if he keeps physically and mentally abusing him.

Auntycorruption · 31/12/2021 08:36

Are you from U.K.? Can you come home?

Your visa, financial & relationship status in aus sounds very precarious. Its unhealthy to live a life out of control.

The best way to protect your son would be to move back to somewhere you can work & live a life free of financial, emotional & physical abuse.

milkieway · 31/12/2021 08:52

I know it must be scary OP but I think you do need to seek help from social services

zaffa · 31/12/2021 09:33

OP - follow up posts show there are a lot of moving parts here. You are too dependent on your ex and that has put you in a compromising position.

I think sit down and list this up - you need to remove his control over your life by not relying on him financially. What are your practical options?

Someone gave excellent advice about a 'paper trail' - your son has asked to be taken to the doctor and so I would absolutely do that and explain what he told you and why you are there. Don't discuss the recording you've taken with anyone just yet - in current circumstances I do think that will actually be held against you, especially if your ex has a recording of you slapping your son. Also, you need to address that - it's not great. (Apologies if I misunderstood that point and it was your ex you slapped, in which case though you also need to address that as he has evidence of you being violent on camera, and your recording could be considered you coaching your son to get something similar).

I don't know what to do about contact. I think you need legal advice and possibly insist that you are present for the weekend with ex so he has 'supervised' contact but doesn't realize what's happening. I don't know the legal system in Aus (or the UK) on this but I think you have a thin legal case to fully stop access and I think your ex may well stop supporting you financially - he is controlling you through that - and I am not sure if you have other options to pay your rent?

Good luck OP - things look impossible right now I understand but you will get through this. Can you return to the UK? Do you have support here?

zaffa · 31/12/2021 09:46

@Auntycorruption

Are you from U.K.? Can you come home?

Your visa, financial & relationship status in aus sounds very precarious. Its unhealthy to live a life out of control.

The best way to protect your son would be to move back to somewhere you can work & live a life free of financial, emotional & physical abuse.

Absolutely agree with this. Your dependency on your ex does make it difficult to act independently when trying to protect your son and whilst I appreciate people saying to just stop contact etc that is tricky if it puts you out on the street without rent paid in a country you don't have access to services / public funds.

Your immediate need is independence from him and his financial support, whilst supervising time he has with your child.

Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 10:04

@Auntycorruption @zaffa

I am from the U.K. but the children are Australian residents and I can’t get British passports for them without their fathers signature. Equally, if I had a way of getting them on the plane, I would be in violation of The Hague convention and I would be made to return them to Australia and there may be criminal liability for taking them overseas. My ex won’t consent to us moving back and I don’t have anything resembling a support network here. A court also wouldn’t look favourably on it as per the advice I’ve received as they deem a meaningful relationship with both parents necessary to the child’s wellbeing.

OP posts:
Auntycorruption · 31/12/2021 10:16

[quote Redpoppies92]**@Auntycorruption* @zaffa*

I am from the U.K. but the children are Australian residents and I can’t get British passports for them without their fathers signature. Equally, if I had a way of getting them on the plane, I would be in violation of The Hague convention and I would be made to return them to Australia and there may be criminal liability for taking them overseas. My ex won’t consent to us moving back and I don’t have anything resembling a support network here. A court also wouldn’t look favourably on it as per the advice I’ve received as they deem a meaningful relationship with both parents necessary to the child’s wellbeing.[/quote]
I've heard and read more & more about these situations recently. There should be some sort of educational campaign to highlight the risks of giving birth abroad, particularly when unmarried. You seem to be saying that you have no right to work, no right to assets as unmarried and entirely dependent on your ex forever?! Have I misunderstood? If I haven't then you need be playing the long game here. Keep your ex sweet enough to sign the passports and allow to go take kids back to U.K. for a holiday?

Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 10:18

@zaffa

Until I get a visa through I can’t work a way outwards from him. He’s also submitted very dodgy tax returns so I can’t file for child maintenance through the public system. He has threatened me a few times and said I’m not in a position to make rules/demands but nothing seems to have come of it, such as stopping the sleepovers.

The recording was a voice recording of me slapping my ex. Prior to this moment I was shoved over, followed around the house, spat at, you name it. But I don’t have hard evidence and he does have the evidence of me snapping. I do feel remorseful and I think a lot of people under my circumstances would have finally snapped after years of this. It doesn’t bode well that he could use it in court to get majority custody, which of course isn’t really in the best interests of the children, especially given their ages - it could be argued that it would cause issues with attachment to spend all this time away from a primary caregiver.

I’m trying to think more in terms of what to do immediately, as I don’t want to be held in contempt for ‘parental alienation’ as I don’t have evidence of what he’s been doing, equally if I contact social services they may ask why I allowed visits to continue... I feel like I can’t protect the children either way because of the absence of hard evidence, and all because of someone else’s behaviour. So I’m unsure as to whether to allow my son to go tomorrow. I would feel awful for allowing it, but I would also feel awful if a court grants my ex majority custody. I’m weighing so many options up and I simply don’t know how to proceed. I can’t get legal advice for the time being because of everything being shut over Xmas/ny.

OP posts:
Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 10:24

@Auntycorruption

There absolutely needs to be more awareness of this. I would have never have come over even if I had the most perfect relationship if I had understood what the risks were. When I came over, he always said if it doesn’t work out he would allow us to return and would provide a lump sum to set us back up in the U.K. but evidently it was false security, and being 24 and dumb, believed it.

He’s said that he won’t be signing anything until the children turn 5 and are enrolled in school, so Australia is a little like a prison for me right now. Even then, he will only sign for Australian passports, so nothing that would allow us to remain in the U.K. anyhow.

OP posts:
milkieway · 31/12/2021 10:31

Op at one stage it was so bad you went to a refuge that's enough evidence on its own for social services to take your concerns seriously

You're in a very difficult position but reaching out for help is the right thing to do for your children and that will always be viewed as a positive thing by social services

It's a complicated mess and it's too much for you to untangle this now on your own which is why you need some professional support - I couldn't ever in good conscience send my child where someone could be capable of abusing them - the ONLY answer here is that you CANT keep sending your son to your ex

Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 11:15

@milkieway

I just don’t know what is regarded as ‘abuse’ and what is regarded as ‘reasonable corporal punishment’ in the eyes of the law and DSS - obviously I don’t agree with either, but I am concerned my accusations will be brushed under the carpet/I’ll be seen as the unreasonable one.

I spoke to my mother about this predicament and she said given that my ex is aware my son is communicating about this, it’s unlikely that any smacking will occur this weekend, that there will be too many repercussions in court for not allowing visitation and that I should contact SS next week. She also proceeded to say that spanking is normal and that my siblings and I were all spanked. I don’t agree with this and anyhow he’s just two and I don’t agree for him to be punished for normal two year old behaviour

OP posts:
milkieway · 31/12/2021 13:18

You've said you think it's "unlikely" he will be hit so you don't know for sure ...

I'd be making an excuse up for this weekend eg you're all unwell / covid symptoms and you need to take tests or something just to give yourself more time

Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 13:20

@mathanxiety

Thank you for all your advice and obviously you have a good understanding of the struggle I’m facing. Would you advise that I do not allow visitation this weekend and state that I’m awaiting legal advice before I can continue the arrangement? Or just continue as normal as previously suggested? I don’t want him to go tomorrow of course, I’m hoping that a judge may not see one weekend as a major violation if I explain my reasonings (even without evidence). Thoughts?

OP posts:
Redpoppies92 · 31/12/2021 13:23

@milkieway

He will have all my text messages where I said he wasn’t going this weekend because of what my son told me. He said he would ring the bell at 9 as usual and I said I wouldn’t answer. I don’t know how that would look from a judges perspective if I now said it’s due to Covid/illness symptoms as it will look quite obvious

Do you think it would be reasonable if I said I’m withholding visitation until I seek legal advice? Or do you think that would still be classed as parental alienation?

OP posts:
Yummypumpkin · 31/12/2021 13:30

You've ignored your mum's advice and most of the advice on here then.

Hitting a child to discipline them is not illegal.

There are no bruises, marks or other signs that any smacking has been disproportionate.

He pays all your living costs.

He doesn't get night stays.

I'm not sure how he gets to see his daughter by you.

You don't yet have full rights in the country where you live.

Your ex knows you call.him.for parenting advice when you can't cope.

His daughter says there is no smacking.

You weren't concerned enough to take your child to the doctor.

Smacking a child is not illegal.

You didn't report your concerns to social services or the police.

With a few hours notice you refused contact.

I'd say you go back and read the kindly given, sensible advice on this thread.

WhoAre · 31/12/2021 13:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Changelingbutonlyforme · 31/12/2021 14:07

OP I really don’t think this thread is helping you.
You are morally right, smacking a child is a terrible method of discipline and it shouldn’t be acceptable. But it sounds like legally, the level of violence your ex is using against your son is below the threshold to be considered abusive. Everyone who’s shouting about you needing to immediately stop contact etc isn’t understanding how vulnerable you are in this situation.
Do you have access to any legal aid because of the domestic violence?
When will you be able to work? Can you get advice on your immigration situation. Is there any way to get your status fast tracked because of this impossible situation you’re in? Or alternatively, is it at all realistic in your case to ask for a court order to allow you to return home to the UK with the children against your ex’s wishes?

YoBeaches · 31/12/2021 14:39

From what I have read here, you need to draw a distinction in your mind as to what is acceptable punishment snd what is abuse.

A young child regularly being smacked and complaint of pain, is likely the latter.

My first appointment would be with the Gp to ask your son is checked over as your concerned but have no concrete evidence. This also starts a record.

You should then contact your solicitor (or get a new one) and ask for their advise.

I don't know how old your son is but if he's at school that's another conversation you can have to monitor his behaviour.

I also would change the routine. Every weekend with dad and step sister gives you no weekend time at all with him. I appreciate he may be pre school age now but in time that's no good for you or ds.

Can you negotiate a different arrangement so that the time spent is less intense?

I don't trust your ex from your words here. So start making a public record (dr etc) and diary of injuries or complaints from your son that you can use to build a picture.

And ask yourself is it just violence or is there other neglect or harmful behaviour going on whilst in ex's care.

milkieway · 31/12/2021 14:49

@Redpoppies92 I'm sorry I don't have enough experience to really give you the answers and im not sure you will find the help you need on here... - I do think you should call the domestic abuse helpline as they will know more about how to help

GoodKimWenceslasMumsnet · 31/12/2021 17:54

We're so sorry to hear you're going through this, OP.
We hope you don't mind, but when these threads are flagged to us we like to link to our web-guides, which we hope may be helpful. If you'd like to, please do feel free to take a look at our Domestic Violence page: www.mumsnet.com/webguide/domestic-violence.

We're aware that much of the links may not be relevant to you if you're not in the UK, but perhaps they might give you ideas for the sort of organisations you could seek out close to you.

Very best wishes from all at MNHQ.
Flowers

mathanxiety · 31/12/2021 20:01

Would you advise that I do not allow visitation this weekend and state that I’m awaiting legal advice before I can continue the arrangement? Or just continue as normal as previously suggested? I don’t want him to go tomorrow of course, I’m hoping that a judge may not see one weekend as a major violation if I explain my reasonings (even without evidence). Thoughts?

No, sadly you have to let your DS go. A judge cannot just take your word for it and agree with your reason to refuse contact, any more than he could just take your ex's word, if he were to accuse you of something for which he had no evidence. Evidence is key here.

If this visitation agreement is court-ordered, you must never deviate from it or your ex could take you to court on contempt charges. If it's court ordered, the only way it can be changed is by court order.

If the agreement is a casual one between the two of you, then you might be able to get away with it, but you leave yourself open to an accusation of seeking to alienate affection, which many judges are very ready to believe thanks to ideas in our culture about women being scheming, bitter, vengeful, and possessive.

He will have all my text messages where I said he wasn’t going this weekend because of what my son told me. He said he would ring the bell at 9 as usual and I said I wouldn’t answer. I don’t know how that would look from a judges perspective if I now said it’s due to Covid/illness symptoms as it will look quite obvious

Sharp intake of breath here. You should not have done that.

Yes, he will see right through it, and I think you made a big mistake. Please do not act in haste here, and especially do not send any written communication to your ex, which he can store and use against you!! You are handing yourself to this man on a plate.
You have to play a long game here and you must never show your hand like that again.

Do you think it would be reasonable if I said I’m withholding visitation until I seek legal advice? Or do you think that would still be classed as parental alienation?

Only if your visitation arrangement is casual and not court ordered. If it is casual, your ex could respond by filing an emergency motion requesting a hearing to determine custody and visitation arrangements if there are no court ordered arrangements in place, if he thinks you are withholding his son from him. He will deny all of your allegations and seek to punish you by seeking full custody, alleging that you are trying to alienate your son's affections.

If it is court ordered then you have absolutely no choice.

Please remember that your ex has already been through this process with his former partner and has apparently managed to secure visitation every weekend with his older child. He is an old hand at this and you are a rookie.

Let your child go this weekend and get yourself the best legal advice you can afford.

This fight of yours is going to take months and even years. You have to be prepared to dig in and record and date every incident, everything your DS says, bring your DS to doctors, therapists, and be very, very careful when communicating with your ex.

mathanxiety · 31/12/2021 20:15

I spoke to my mother about this predicament and she said given that my ex is aware my son is communicating about this, it’s unlikely that any smacking will occur this weekend, that there will be too many repercussions in court for not allowing visitation and that I should contact SS next week.
This is really good advice from your mum.

She also proceeded to say that spanking is normal and that my siblings and I were all spanked. I don’t agree with this and anyhow he’s just two and I don’t agree for him to be punished for normal two year old behaviour
Just because you don't agree with your mum on spanking doesn't mean her advice on how to proceed with your ex isn't 100% sound.

Please separate your feelings about spanking here from the reality of the situation in the context of the law.

Spanking is legal, and the appropriateness of physical 'discipline' is very much a matter of the eye of the beholder. You think he goes too far. He thinks what he doing is fine. A judge will not decide which of you is right here. It's all he said, she said, and again, spanking is legal.

You would have to actually use a 2x4 plank on a child in full view of police and social workers in order for a judge to determine he was going too far, unfortunately, and even then it might go either way. So please stop thinking you can allege spanking and that will be the end of it.

A further thought on how you could proceed and avoid the accusation of alienation of affection:
You could ask your ex to attend family mediation with an aim of coming to an agreement on parenting practices, if you are very concerned (which you have a right to be, and I agree with you about spanking). You could petition the court to require your ex to attend family counseling/mediation/therapy with the aim of drawing up a code of conduct. This would look very good as it is based on your acceptance of his right to see his son, and your willingness to co-parent with him.

Ask your lawyer about this.

mathanxiety · 31/12/2021 20:22

You could petition the court to require your ex to attend family counseling/mediation/therapy with the aim of drawing up a code of conduct [if he refuses]

JennyForeigner · 31/12/2021 20:26

OP - just to pick up on your fears about the recording your ex has of you. You need to manage this then put it out of your mind. As others have said, you need to document his past abuse against you, so the recording is then in context. If you have the facts ready then even making the recording starts to look like trying to control and coerce you - which you now suggest is the case.

If there is a history of violence against you, 'smacking' is a serious concern, and especially if your son is pointing to his tummy. People don't smack tummies, they hit them.

Get help from a domestic abuse charity asap. They will help you to clarify your situation, with legal support if needed. Act now, before your ex can try to twist things. Good luck.

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