At breaking point with 5 year old DS

[uhohspaghettiohh]

Please help, I'm losing the will to live.

We have a 5 year old DS and one year old DD. DS, until a year or so ago, was always my shadow and a huge mummy's boy. Pregnancy with DD hard, I was poorly and in and out of hospital - so DH did more with him. As a consequence, they got closer, which has been lovely, and had been a long time coming.

But now, DS hates me, says some really awful things to me. He screams, shouts, doesn't listen. It is getting worse. He is now screaming at DH, an example was this morning, his sister had been poorly so I bought her down last night, he had a car track out, so we put it away so DD didn't break it. Well, this morning, he SCREAMED the place down because it wasn't out, literally whaling. Could hear DH pleading with him to be quiet as DD had been up in the night and not slept etc.

He doesn't listen, you say don't do something, and he does it. When you want him to follow a command or eat his tea he will make nonsense up on the spot by saying 'just let me do this' 'just let me say this'.

Grandparents are now noticing. School have no issues or concerns. He hates me, he screams if I try and put him to bed. When I say no to something he says he will go and tell daddy. He tells me to stop talking. He was poorly a few weeks ago and he wouldn't have me anywhere near him, I went to touch his forehead to feel if he was hot and he went mad.

I spend time with him, we go on days out, we do things together. He is slightly better when we are alone but he still doesn't listen and does what he wants to do, even if it's dangerous like
walking along a busy road.

I feel so low. We are terrified of him. The other morning DH was putting his onesie on him, helping with his sleeves, because DH wasn't quick enough he started shouting. DH physically recoiled as he was scared! Things like pushing him in on his chair at the table, I didn't push him in enough, so he went mad, pushed him in further - too close to the table! So pulled him out and boom - apocalypse!

He's rough with his sister, you can see him purposefully stand on her feet or hands. Don't get me wrong, he can be nice with her and hugs / kisses her. But other times it's just chaos.

My DH and I preach from the same sheet, I might be a little more strict with him but that's mainly due to the way he talks to me. I ignore but he goes further.

I'm sorry for the essay - we just don't know what to do!

Why are you afraid of him? Is he hurting you? When he screams I would just say: I'll talk to you/ help you when you are not shouting at me. Then ignore until he stops.

Terrified of a shouting 5YO? That’s a bit much.

No, although he does hit me at times. Afraid of how he will react. I say 'I'm not talking to you whilst you're like this' and he just screams 'listen to me mummy! Listen to me mummy!' Over and over.

@ToughTittyWhompus

Terrified of a shouting 5YO? That’s a bit much.

It's been like this for over a year. Maybe terrified is the wrong word, but he just exhausts us. We've gone wrong somewhere.

Fairly normal behaviour OP. My 5YO has had enormous upheaval due to the pandemic and that’s without throwing a new sibling into the mix along with an ill parent.

Sorry to hear this. From the timeline, I'm assuming the changes in his behaviour are all because he is jealous of DD and you spending more time with her than him?(also assuming you've been on mat leave?)

It can be very hard.on the older sibling when their world is turned upside down by a younger one. Especially if you were also unwell during your pregnancy. Is there any unprocessed anxiety or fear he might be experiencing? Have you asked him to draw pictures of how he feels about you/DH/DD? Could you play small world families/role play families to help him express himself?

What are the consequences for behaviours you really don’t want like deliberately hurting his baby sister or walking into busy roads??
He’s 5 a little bit too old to not know what he’s doing, at least some of the time.
If he can behave at school, chances are he can learn to behave at home.
I would start with maybe 3 very basic rules. Like not hurting others, no screaming etc
These are none negotiable and will lead to X happening.
Look for and find all the good behaviours and reward him.
If you say something, mean it.
It does sound like the new baby has bad rather negative impact on him and his behaviour.

My DD1 had a really hard time from when DD2 was about 6mo for a good few months.
We worked a lot on expressing emotions and adjusting to her place in the family. Made a huge fuss of how much her little sister loved her and wanted to be like her, and how clever she would be because her big sister would teach her so much, etc. Also read a lot of books about sibling relationships. One really good one was called His Royal Tinyness which I'd recommend

@uhohspaghettiohh

No, although he does hit me at times. Afraid of how he will react. I say 'I'm not talking to you whilst you're like this' and he just screams 'listen to me mummy! Listen to me mummy!' Over and over.

Have you waited that out?

Sounds like he has massive resentment of the new baby coming along and stealing his mum. In his mind he probably felt rejected, even if that seems illogical to you.

I knew a delightful 6 year old who suddenly started putting his parents through hell when a baby sister arrived and put his nose out of joint. (He DID get over it eventually!)

Some play therapy/counselling for him and some parenting classes for you might really help. Also making it clear that the baby's needs/wants don't trump his but on the other hand he has to be polite and follow instructions, with sanctions if he hits or is rude. Talk to school too - even if he is OK in school they may have suggestions for strategies or be able to give you contact details for play therapy, etc. But don't let him see you are scared. You have to get on top of his behaviour now or you will have no hope as he gets older!

It sounds really hard for you all.

To me, it reads as though he's actually been very distressed by your absences during pregnancy (obv not your fault!), doesn't know how else to show this, and you're reading his behaviour rather literally instead of reading between the lines. I really recommend "How to talk so kids will listen" - it has lots of great tips on how to give kids the space and support to express their feelings....

I'd agree re play therapy, as well - you don't want this level of distress and tricky dynamic continuing

I'd also try and avoid having to do things like putting away something he was playing with ... because his sister.

Try find some parenting classes
Or ask school for home behaviour support
For someone to come and advise you

My Dd was just over 3 when DS arrived and we had some pretty terrible behaviour. It's all due to the upheaval so you need to be pretty clear in how you will
tackle it.

When the screaming etc starts you say clearly you will not talk to him until he can use indoor/kind voice then leave the room or turn your back. When he calms down then loads of attention and fuss.

If he hits or behaves badly then warn once, warn twice and then carry out consequence eg remove Roy, 5 mins on time out whatever works for you. Time out was very effective on DS for us.

Consistency is key. Don't say anything you don't mean (my DH is bad at saying things I know won't happen and I groan inwardly). My friend was once away at a cabin with friends and told her ds they would go home is he continued. He continued so they reluctantly packed up and left.

It will Pass though. Keep loving him and your new daughter.

Is he punished? If so how?

Remove toy not Roy!! Who the hell
Is Roy??!!!😂😂

Thank you, everyone. A lot of useful tips here.

When he was shouting 'listen to me mummy' I did ignore him.

He's such a pleasant, sensitive soul, so thoughtful but his temper has really blown up over the last year.

I've got a call with the school nurse tomorrow, she's a colleague of mine. I don't think CAMHs will accept the referral as he's fine in school.

When he does hurt his sister we do 'punish' - I don't like that word, can't think of an alternative. We either send him to his room, or no tv or he can't have a treat etc.

It seems to have gone on for such a long time. We just want our little boy back. I have so much patience but when he's hitting out or saying nasty things it's hard to ignore.

And to a PP - we had to put it away as she was pulling it apart and would've ended up breaking it. It was right in the middle of the living room, there was no way we couldn't have not. She hardly has any toys out, it's all his stuff honestly. He comes first with everything. We plan everything around him.

He's shouting "listen to me mummy" because he doesn't feel heard - I really wouldn't ignore him, though of course you can say along lines of "I can hear how cross and upset you feel, but I need you to tell me about it in a calmer voice".

Even when you need to "punish", you're much better doing a natural consequence rather than a "punishment" like taking a toy away, and he still really needs help to recognise and express what he's feeling using his words - the behaviour will then automatically get easier, I promise! He needs your help to get the emotional tools to deal with how he's feeling.

The 2 most helpful books I've read are 123 magic and how to talk so little kids will listen. We still employ the 123 technique, kids are 7 and 4.5 now. It's a basically 3 strikes and up to your room for a timeout. But really worth reading the book because it makes it clear that you really do not take any quarter with it. No back chat. No engaging in argument. It really helps with keeping your cool. For us, it does definitely work.

I had some really terrible times with my now 4 year old when DS was born/Covid hit. Looking back at it all, there was a LOT of upheaval in DD’s life, lots of shouting from mummy (tired, newborn, Covid stress, no patience etc). It took us a long time from trying to reprimand this behaviour to realising she had (and still has) a lot of anxiety and fear built up during this time.
A new baby, his mum being poorly and not being around, Covid upheaval with school/not seeing family - it’s a lot for a 4/5 year old to process.
You need to really “love bomb” him - make sure he knows that you love him, no matter what he does. He’s almost trying to push you away because he’s scared, probably jealous and doesn’t understand all these feelings.
I also make sure to treat my younger DS the same as DD - ie if I scold DD for something, I also do the same to DS! (Not that it really has the same effect to a 1 year old but it helps my DD to hear me treating them the same).
I found punishing just made the situation worse. A lot of the tantrums were for attention. By playing it down and saying things like “oh not this silly shouting again” etc, diffused the situation much faster than threats/punishments etc

He is 5
Behaviour is communication

his sister had been poorly so I bought her down last night, he had a car track out, so we put it away so DD didn't break it. Well, this morning, he SCREAMED the place down because it wasn't out, literally whaling

So imagine you put out your stuff on the evening thinking you will come back to It in the morning
You get up and it s been cleared away... no warning just gone

You might feel mad
You might shout who the heck cleared this away!

He needs to be shown how to express emotions better for sure
Buf his feelings need to be listened to as well

So before going downstairs you could have prepared him, told him it was put away and why

Planning everything around him probably isn't helping you either to be honest. You need DS to see himself as being an equal part of a 4 person team. Treating him like the boss might be too much, just as treating your DD like the boss wouldn't be enough for him. Find a happy medium.

Sit down and problem solve with him when he's calm e.g. ask him for what he'd do if DD might break his train set. Would he put it away, leave it out, move it to another room? Help him feel like part of the solution. If you can turn it into a game even better

Check out big little feelings on instagram they have some good tips on their stories about this sort of thing. Also scripts for how to reply to him when he is shouting / screaming /hurting sister. They also have a big bit about parental preference.