Getting a 4yo out of the house

[CustomerRelations]

DD is 5 in Nov. She's bright, fun, amusing, good to be around and generally well behaved. I don't think she's spoiled and we set the right boundaries etc at home.

The problem is, she sometimes suddenly decides we're not going out to something and there's no budging her. Eg we'll arrange to meet friends, she'll agree to it then 5 minutes before we leave she announces she doesn't want to. Most of the time I can't bribe, coax or threaten my way out of it and she's too big to carry. I end up just cancelling plans (for DS as well) rather than having a big confrontation because she never backs down.

Any ideas? It feels wrong to let her call the shots but I also don't want to end up having a battle I can't win!

It sounds like she wants to stay home and play, so if she's refusing then I'd make home less appealing. No screens, toys, fun stuff would be the natural consequences of refusing a play date/going out.

So if she wants to stay gone she can stay home and read/colour etc but that's it
However I'd also think about whether you want to tolerate her defiance (if that's what it is) gull stop.

You need some non-negotiable rules. How will you get her to school otherwise?

You could just play with your 2 year old. Say DS didn't go to the park and thats not fair on him so I'm going to read him his stories/whatever activity that doesn't interest her, we will play later. You don't have to actively ignore her but I'd be putting your focus on DS instead.

I give her a piggyback out the door and to the car. Even when mine is in a terrible mood she cant resist a piggyback.

She loves chores and reading, but I take the point. I agree we need it to be non-negotiable that she goes out, but it's about getting to that point given that we're not at it now.

Key points:
I know it's not ideal that she thinks she can call the shots, that's why I'm posting
Most of the time we go on foot not by car and never by pram
She's too big, heavy and ferocious to carry in tandem with managing a 2yo

Thanks to all the people with constructive suggestions, less thanks to those who just want to tell me it's a problem I don't want to have and their kids don't do it.

My DS (also 4 and about the start school) and is similar. I have begun to suspect he might have ASD with PDA (pathological demand avoidance). Obviously there are other things that make me suspect it and not just battles to leave the house. Anyway whether it's PDA or not, I find the strategies that are recommended for a child with PDA actually work with him (whereas the vast majority of strategies mentioned by PPs don't work at all).

@Crowsaregreat

She loves chores and reading, but I take the point. I agree we need it to be non-negotiable that she goes out, but it's about getting to that point given that we're not at it now.

Key points:
I know it's not ideal that she thinks she can call the shots, that's why I'm posting
Most of the time we go on foot not by car and never by pram
She's too big, heavy and ferocious to carry in tandem with managing a 2yo

Thanks to all the people with constructive suggestions, less thanks to those who just want to tell me it's a problem I don't want to have and their kids don't do it.

It's very easy for someone to judge when their own kids don't do it. I've yet to meet a perfect child and definitely havent met a perfect parent. My advice above is from working with children, it's easier when their not my own so I can implement things with a lot less emotional charge. Doing the same with my own is very different

Thanks @upshittscreek!

You can force her into the car, pick her up and put her in. Then allow her to kick off and scream and cry until she stops. That's what I would do 🤷‍♀️. If you keep letting her decide she is learning that it works and will continue to do it.

Oh i just read you say you are going on foot, I previously read that she was too big to carry to the car. That makes it more difficult. I think I would pretend to set off without her.

@Crowsaregreat name change fail?

She sits on the thinking step until she's ready to go. No toys, no talking about. Just silence. You can't let her win this one OP.

Could you afford to get a really exciting double buggy that fits five year olds in it? One of those monster truck looking ones? And if she doesn't come willingly she has to come in that, which I'm sure you can wrestle her into. İf she plays up during the play date give her a time out in the buggy?

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It is super hard. First you could try to have a talk on a day you don't have something planned and talk about commitment, and how we are letting other people down when we pull out. It can be letting you, DS or the friends that will suffer the consequences of her refusing to go.

In addition to that, we can't always do what we want. She lives in a family and sometimes you will do what she wants, other times, what other people want. Like school, sometimes, there is an activity she likes, other times, one she likes less, but in the same way, she has to do it, at home, the same applies.

Does she understand?

Good, because next time, it happens, she will spend the afternoon in your bedroom (parents) where there are no toys, no books, tv, iPad. You can't physically make her go somewhere, but you can make her afternoon very miserable. The alternative to "not going" has to be worse than "going"
Or have something planned for her, something super exciting, and then, at the door, say " actually no, we are not going" and go on the sofa and open MN

"have something planned for her, something super exciting, and then, at the door, say " actually no, we are not going" and go on the sofa and open MN"

That would be a shitty, spiteful thing to do to a 4yo.

I feel like some people are on a different planet sometimes!

I know of one child who behaves like that. If she doesn't get her own way she digs her heels in. She has been diagnosed as autistic and definitely shows traits of Pathological Defiance Disorder.
She is a teenager but these traits were obvious from pre school.
She found primary school very difficult.
Many people thought she was a spoiled, over indulged child. But it was much more problematic than that.
I know this isn't great to hear but I mention it just in case your daughter has PDD so you will be able to get the help she needs.
If she doesn't have PDD it will be easier for you.

@LadyEloise1

I know of one child who behaves like that. If she doesn't get her own way she digs her heels in. She has been diagnosed as autistic and definitely shows traits of Pathological Defiance Disorder. She is a teenager but these traits were obvious from pre school. She found primary school very difficult. Many people thought she was a spoiled, over indulged child. But it was much more problematic than that. I know this isn't great to hear but I mention it just in case your daughter has PDD so you will be able to get the help she needs. If she doesn't have PDD it will be easier for you.

Do you mean Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) or Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)? They are different things. PDA is part of the autism spectrum so it's probably that if she's been diagnosed with ASD.

I love it, a child that doesn't want to go on an outing (but will happily follow other instructions at home/school) has Pathological Defiance Disorder.

So far as I know, she has no disorder of any kind! Seems ok otherwise.

We're going to introduce a kind of star chart system and take stars off if she pulls this kind of high jinks.

@Cormoran

It is super hard. First you could try to have a talk on a day you don't have something planned and talk about commitment, and how we are letting other people down when we pull out. It can be letting you, DS or the friends that will suffer the consequences of her refusing to go.

In addition to that, we can't always do what we want. She lives in a family and sometimes you will do what she wants, other times, what other people want. Like school, sometimes, there is an activity she likes, other times, one she likes less, but in the same way, she has to do it, at home, the same applies.

Does she understand?

Good, because next time, it happens, she will spend the afternoon in your bedroom (parents) where there are no toys, no books, tv, iPad. You can't physically make her go somewhere, but you can make her afternoon very miserable. The alternative to "not going" has to be worse than "going"
Or have something planned for her, something super exciting, and then, at the door, say " actually no, we are not going" and go on the sofa and open MN

I agree up until the shutting her away thing, that would not work for anyone! Or the mean going out trick.

My DD2 is like this, she is literally the world's most stubborn child, it's so infuriating!

We do a lot of talking round it, how we've made a commitment, it's not fair on DD1 etc. I try to stand firm and tell her she has no choice, but my goodness, have we had some epic melt downs.

I too have looked into PDA, I don't think my DD does have ASD, but some of the PDA advice does work also. One aspect I found really interesting was to treat the refusal/stubbornness as a kind of panic attack/anxiety rather than being naughty. If I sit with DD and try to ask her why she doesn't want to go etc and try to gently persuade her, that's better all round than demanding and her having a meltdown. Doesn't always work though!

It definitely comes from a place of wanting control, so I echo what pp said about trying to introduce some control for her into the situation.

DD designed her own "football chart" where the football moves forward toward the goal when she's good, but when she has difficult moments like this, there's a risk it may go back a step. She gets a treat once it gets in the goal. Rewarding good behaviour rather than punishing bad I guess.

DD is 7 now and it's getting better now, it's taken a LOT of patience and work to get to this point though. Good luck!

@CustomerRelations it is not meant to be mean. Unpleasant, absolutely, but not mean.

You have tried arguing, cajoling, talking , .... and it got you nowhere. I offered two scenarios. Both scenarios involved a previous discussion and agreement with DD on a day in which no outing was planned.

If despite the agreement and commitment, she refuses to go:

1. when she "wins" and you cancel, she also wins a very boring amount of time in a room with no entertainment, and usually this means the parents' room. She doesn't have to be locked, or even alone. You can be in the room as well, reading a book, doing a pilates workout, tidying your underwear drawer, folding laundry, doing abs, ... it can be 15 min or 1 hour . It just needs to be far worse than the outing and very boring.

2. when you mirror her behaviour and at the door change your mind and go on the sofa, it is a lesson not a nasty punishment. After 5 min, you call her to you, tell her to stop crying and listen very very carefully because based on her answers, she might still be able to go and you ask her:
   -did we have a plan to do something? were you looking forward to it? Were you upset I cancelled? Is it a nice or ugly feeling? do you know you have done this to us 3, 5, 10 times in the last year? do you understand how horrible this is? what about we agree I won't cancel your plans and you don't cancel ours? If you are satisfied with her answers, you can still go to whatever was planned.

I don't think she is naughty, she just wants to have things her way all the time which is normal for every child and doesn't mean she has special needs, and as parents we are happy to oblige most of the time, but there are occasions in which it is " sorry, but today, we are doing as I say, so put your shoes on please."

I am not British, but Monegasque, so more a French style parenting, so it might appear as drastic , when in fact it is more a no nonsense approach. Solve an issue once and for all.

I guess you need to find the carrot to get her out of the house. She is at an age where you can explain and reason with her, but I know my own 5yo ds2 is very contrary at the moment. It's just a phase but it's hard work.
After lockdown 1 my then 6yo ds1 was a bit reluctant to leave the house. He couldn't explain himself, because he didn't know his own reasons, but there was a low level anxiety having seen the news about corona virus and he had internalised the message to stay at home.
So I cajoled him with sweets and the offer to play pokemon go on my phone.
We just went to the local playground and once there he started playing happily.
Perhaps you could try baby steps with her. Offer to go to the shops and allow her to spend some pocket money. Let her play on your phone for a set amount of time. Or offer an hour tablet time when you get home.
Build up from some short trips out to longer. It does sound hard.
Do you have any other adults who could help with managing this?
Ones who could visit or walk with her so you can get your ds to his groups?

If you physically cannot get her in the car, then you need to make the afternoon at home not nice. There is no way I would be playing with her at all. She has to sit on the stairs doing nothing while you play with the 2 year old. No TV for the entire day. She has to understand how big an issue this is and crucially that she is not in charge of the family.
If there are kids she does not like, then avoid them. For now, only arrange to see children she likes so you know there isn’t a problem there. Make it clear it is happening and if you cannot drag her into the car(I’m afraid I would have done this with my boys, no doubt about it) then she has to learn that the alternative is undesirable.

I think tuck her under your arm and set off. Put her outside the door. Lock the door so she can't get back in the house and go. The backing down you have done previously will mean it is harder the first few times as DD will expect to get her own way eventually as she thinks she can grind you down. I would expect maybe 2 or 3 awful days out then hopefully DD will go along with the plans more. I agree don't ask I'd she would like to go. She will be going but run a count down so she knows it is coming. We are going out with X today. We are going out in 1 hr with X. We are going out in 10 minutes. We are going out now. Gives her time to get used to the idea, and reminds her that it is happening. That worked for me. Obviously still had melt downs and bad days too!