Is this too harsh punishment for 6.5 year old?

[Googleboxfan]

DD6 was naughty last night, hitting and not doing what she was told.
This morning tried talking to her to tell her her behaviour was unacceptable last night and because of this, as a consequence she will not go to the climbing wall with her friend as arranged.
Again hitting and throwing cushions at me. I warned her by saying if this behaviour continues she will not go horse riding tomorrow either.

Again she continued and I warned if behaviour continues she won't go to the park after school with her friends (there's going to be a big get together with parents etc)

Is this all too harsh. I know I will get resistance from her but I don't want further bad behaviour from her.

Shall I keep to my decision or shall I say if I see good behaviour this evening you can go to horse riding tomorrow?

Honestly, I think you handled things badly and let the situation escalate out of your control. Threats of withdrawing future treats is a really ineffective discipline method. So with that in mind, I don't think there's any harm in modelling how to admit you were wrong.

So talk to her when you are both calm, try to find out about what set off the hitting and come up with a predictable, consistent, immediate consequence of violent behaviour. With my DD, it was that when she hit, she hurt people and wasn't safe to be around, so she would have to go to her room/a quiet place away from other people until she could behave in a way that wasn't going to hurt people, and she would have to clear up any mess or damage she caused when angry. For your DD, something else might be more appropriate.

In terms of withdrawal of treats, I don't think it will make much difference to future behaviour whether you stick to your threatened punishments, or have a talk and start over with a clean slate as long as you are more or less consistent from now on, so I'd go for whichever action you think will build trust between you.

Also, do you have a real life person to talk to? Because I always felt like shit when things got out of hand like that, and it's so helpful to have a friend or partner or family member who can listen to you rant and calm you down and help you feel ok again.

Who does she hit and when? Have you kept a diary of when it’s more likely to happen? Hitting is a symptom of something bigger for a child that age even if it’s something as simple as tiredness; so punishing it as if she has control over her emotions is pointless.

I think rather than punish for hitting, you should incentivise good behaviour. With her temperament I wouldn’t really trust her around horses - so it might be a good idea to link that with good behaviour (appreciate that can get expensive!). I wouldn’t include pre-arranged stuff with friends in this though as that punishes the friend too.

I’ve found the constant removal of things they like doesn’t do any good in teaching them how to change their behaviour. It just makes them more upset/angry and prolongs it.

I would still stop her going climbing today but give her the opportunity to earn back the other two activities. This teaches her that changing her attitude/behaviour doesn’t just benefit others but also herself.

What caused the hitting? I think you need to get to what triggers her - is it out of anger/frustration/fear/upset/overwhelming? Once you’ve got to the root of that I would go about trying to teach her alternative coping mechanisms. She needs a safe method of expressing her emotions. It was a really good day example upthread - can she have a safe area (her bedroom/a corner of the living room/a den) that can be her emotion space and she stamp and shout her emotions instead of hitting. Not tantrum but shout ‘I’m angry! I’m frustrated! I’m nervous!’

I would also talk a lot about how emotions make us feel different things and that anger is a very normal thing to feel but that we don’t hit others. But we can hit pillows/stuffed animals etc.

She’s only six which is very little, I think distraction and alternative expressions are the way forward beyond constant removal.

What other punishments do you implement? Do you have a thinking step? I always found those very effective.

While I was writing, I see other people have been giving better, clearer advice on exactly what to do, so listen to them, not me.

It doesn't actually seem to be an effective punishment though if it's escalated so much she never leaves the house.

What caused the shouting and throwing?

Do you enforce good behaviour too? I watched a YouTube video on this that very often the only time children receive direction from their parents is for bad behaviour ‘we don’t do this/we don’t do that’ and unless they do something exceptional then they aren’t praised for what is deemed ‘normal’. So if she plays nicely for half an hour ‘DD you’ve played so well’ or if she walks next to you and holds your hand ‘DD you’re walking so nicely it’s so nice to come for walks with you’ or even if she comes and tells you her emotions ‘wow DD, you’ve explained how you feel so well I can really understand how you are feeling. When you talk to me I find it so much easier to help you.’ Once she learns she can behave well very often the negative behaviour can subside because she gets attention for behaving well too.

In the past we've both said down eith her when she is calm and We've talked about emotions and feelings of anger frustration etc.
We've explained to her that she is a kind and caring little girl etc and that hitting is unacceptable behaviour.
We've given her ideas on what to do if she feels angry like hitting a pillow, stamping her feet, dancing.
In the past I've always shouted at her which I feel bad about. Now I am much calmer.
Last night I sat with her in her room and was calm.

She settled down eventually

She has not been to school this week, so shouldn't be tired.

She had cake. Didn't eat her tea. Then went to cupboard to get more cake and an Oreo yogurt. Told her she couldn't have both and had to choose.

Then tantrum even though I was trying to help her choose

You can’t keep taking stuff away because they have no incentive to turn things around. If she’s not doing all the fun stuff she wants to do anyway then why would she bother to start behaving nicely? Nothing left to lose.

Take away one big thing at a time, but say it can be earnt back by x time for a turnaround in behaviour. let her deal with the consequences of not going (sobbing, crying raging etc) then start the next day with a clean slate.

Carrot and stick.

@nocturnalcatfreetogoodhome

Do you enforce good behaviour too? I watched a YouTube video on this that very often the only time children receive direction from their parents is for bad behaviour ‘we don’t do this/we don’t do that’ and unless they do something exceptional then they aren’t praised for what is deemed ‘normal’. So if she plays nicely for half an hour ‘DD you’ve played so well’ or if she walks next to you and holds your hand ‘DD you’re walking so nicely it’s so nice to come for walks with you’ or even if she comes and tells you her emotions ‘wow DD, you’ve explained how you feel so well I can really understand how you are feeling. When you talk to me I find it so much easier to help you.’ Once she learns she can behave well very often the negative behaviour can subside because she gets attention for behaving well too.

We always praise good behaviour as I am a believer in this approach

Don’t ‘help’ her choose. Say it’s x or x and if she screams for both or doesn’t decide she gets neither.

Although having read that again she shouldn’t be getting either if she doesn’t bother eating her main meal!

@Googleboxfan

She has not been to school this week, so shouldn't be tired.

She had cake. Didn't eat her tea. Then went to cupboard to get more cake and an Oreo yogurt. Told her she couldn't have both and had to choose.

Then tantrum even though I was trying to help her choose

She was hungry. Who let her eat cake before tea?

She sounds like she struggles to express her frustrations. Have you tried deep breathing or any self regulation methods?

If she’s unreceptive to any suggestions whilst having tantrums I would also walk away. Don’t respond to the behaviour and when she has calmed deal with her in the aftermath.

One of my children finds choices cery stressful and they lead to tantrums! Which is the dxact opposite of what all the books say to. They all say offer a choice to give the child control. Things were much easier when we realised. Unlikely your daughter is the same but its seemed worth mentioning.

@Googleboxfan

She has not been to school this week, so shouldn't be tired.

She had cake. Didn't eat her tea. Then went to cupboard to get more cake and an Oreo yogurt. Told her she couldn't have both and had to choose.

Then tantrum even though I was trying to help her choose

What's the thing about going to the park after school about then? I don't understand?

Even still, she can be exhausted from being home all day in this heat. Trust me, I am!

@MildredPuppy

One of my children finds choices cery stressful and they lead to tantrums! Which is the dxact opposite of what all the books say to. They all say offer a choice to give the child control. Things were much easier when we realised. Unlikely your daughter is the same but its seemed worth mentioning.

I must admit my DC respond better to a lack of choice and a stricter routine. Personally I hate it but they seem to do better.

All behaviour is communication - your child is hitting because they can’t express their needs and wants in any other way. Instead of trying to understand what she needs from you, you are simply making her more and more frustrated and sad by escalating her punishments. At 6 she literally needs help to understand why she feels like hitting, not just someone telling them to stop hitting.
I recommend you read a book called “How to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk”.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

Although having read that again she shouldn’t be getting either if she doesn’t bother eating her main meal!

Agreed! Om both points. But my other half has different views

@nocturnalcatfreetogoodhome

She sounds like she struggles to express her frustrations. Have you tried deep breathing or any self regulation methods?

If she’s unreceptive to any suggestions whilst having tantrums I would also walk away. Don’t respond to the behaviour and when she has calmed deal with her in the aftermath.

We've tried this. When we walk away she follows us and sticks to us like glue whilst continuing the behaviour

Whether or not it’s harsh is irrelevant, the fact is that it isn’t working. You took away a treat and then had to do two more as the behaviour continued, so she obviously isn’t linking the bad behaviour and consequence very clearly, or it’s just feeding into her anger.

If you’ve always shouted at her and there’s tension at home this will be affecting her. It’s great that you’ve found better ways to cope, but it won’t be an instant change for your daughter as she has already fallen into this cycle of behaviour.

I would suggest setting some clear and firm boundaries (for example why is she allowed to choose between a second cake and an Oreo pudding after refusing tea at all) with perhaps a reward/sticker chart for following good behaviour rules. Maybe she could help create a rule board with things like kind hands, good words etc.

I would also maybe head sugary snack arguments off at the pass by putting them in a place she can’t access them. I allow my kids access to fruit/vegetables but if I allowed them unfettered access to cakes and puddings it would be a free for all. And it’s much harder to refuse and more likely to lead to a tantrum when they have both the sugary snacks in their hands. If she had asked beforehand rather than helping herself you could have offered her dinner, a bit of toast or something that will actually fill her up rather than a sugar hit.

I do gems in a jar for certain good behaviours, they are plastic things on Amazon and the kids love them. Gems can be taken away too. When they’ve saved say 5/10 gems they get a treat but it’s something low key like going to get a comic, or an hour of TV, their favourite pudding, or a play date with their friend, not major things because it’s too much for them to hinge all their behaviours on one huge event and then not get it. Little and regular things to keep up the incentive.

There’s a certain colour gem I keep back for major good behaviour days, and award it at random, and that’s worth a treat all on its own. They very rarely get that one though 😂

My concern would be that losing a climbing session or going horse riding are not connected in time or consequence to hitting. e.g. DD loses control and hits out on Tuesday, by Wednesday she's calmed down, said sorry and feels regret. By Saturday the whole thing is over and everyone's happy but the unrelated punishment is applied and she loses her climbing session.

What was the hitting about? What was happening before? What was the trigger? What could have been the immediate and natural consequence of the hitting? That should be the punishment.

e.g. She doesn't want to stop playing with toy and go to bed. Mum tries to remove the toy and she hits mum. Natural consequence = dd, that toy seems to make you very cross and you're not good at stopping playing with it, so we'll take it away for a while until you are sensible enough to stop when you're told. Or Dd, you hit me and it hurt me and that makes me feel sad and cross, so i'm going to read a book on my own for a while and have a think until I feel calm. I think you should do that too because you don't seem calm. When we both feel calm we can talk about what went wrong

My mother loved to threaten to take things away. In the end I told her I didn't want to do any of my extra curriculars and slowly quit them all. I stopped telling her when I got invitations to things as it was easier to miss out on birthday parties and school discos than it was to constantly have them threatened. Until I was a teenager, when I'd just lie about them instead.