4 months too young for sleep training?

[Dorset555]

Hi all need some advice my partner is really adamant that we need to leave our baby to cry more. He takes a hard line and I'm much more soft. I'm trying to compromise with well planned sleep training, and wondering when we can start it. Is 4 months too young? I'm pretty sure we have been through the regression/are coming to the end of it. There is so much conflicting advice online, I guess because there are no instruction manuals with babies....but what do you guys think? Thank you!!

My DS was still in a next-to-me at 4 months, so when he cried I picked him up. I couldn't leave him to cry. It seems so young and they're still so vulnerable.

Babies that age generally wake in the night. Go and comfort them when they cry. Plenty of time for sleep training.

It's neglect, no matter how it's dressed up. I've an almost 4 month old and I'd rather never sleep again than do that to him. If you want a less disturbed night's sleep then consider co-sleeping safely

How many babies have died when co sleeping? How many babies have cried themselves to death?

Just because you try to make co sleeping safe does not mean that it will be. If I had a choice between 4 month old controlled crying and co sleeping it would be the former every time.

OP some crying will be fine as long as you have tended to their essential needs ie hunger, uncomfortable, too hot and alike. However probably best to attempt to re settle and restart even though sometimes it feels like a pointless exercise.

@JellyBabiesFan

It's neglect, no matter how it's dressed up. I've an almost 4 month old and I'd rather never sleep again than do that to him. If you want a less disturbed night's sleep then consider co-sleeping safely

How many babies have died when co sleeping? How many babies have cried themselves to death?

Just because you try to make co sleeping safe does not mean that it will be. If I had a choice between 4 month old controlled crying and co sleeping it would be the former every time.

OP some crying will be fine as long as you have tended to their essential needs ie hunger, uncomfortable, too hot and alike. However probably best to attempt to re settle and restart even though sometimes it feels like a pointless exercise.

If it's done safely then the risk is not as vast. The lullaby trust even has guidelines. I'm not actually advocating for it however. I don't do it. I have a next to me style crib and wake whenever I'm needed.

That's why I said co-sleep OR wake up and tend to child by getting up. Co sleeping is safer than falling asleep breastfeeding on a sofa for example. But it's not first choice. First choice is to suck it up and tend to the needs of the child you've just grown and birthed. I don't know why people have babies and then get upset about having to tend to them.

DS has reflux and CMPA, I'm shattered, but I made him, I knew this kind of thing would happen, it's not forever, and I'd rather be knackered than leave my child to scream and teach him that no one comes to comfort him. Because that's all it is, no matter the particular style of training. They all stem from CIO.

Babies are designed to cry to alert you. Otherwise they wouldn't be born knowing how to cry surely. I'm not sure I could trust your partner to look after your DC, knowing they are so excited to neglect them.

How many babies have died when co sleeping? How many babies have cried themselves to death?

I bet you only consider Covid in terms of death as well. Co-sleeping is the biological norm. Letting tiny babies cry is not, hence the cortisol response seen in both baby and parent. Stress impacts on so many things - in a tiny baby who is developing millions of neurons a month I’m not sure I’d be actively choosing to stress them out.

Have you even tried a routine yet? That would be my first port of call to get baby sleeping better. There is no point in sleep training if baby is hungry, not tired enough to sleep at night or overtired. Crack that and allow the dummy for soothing and you might not even need to consider sleep training. Gina Ford can be good if you’re totally clueless of where to start but you don’t actually need to follow it religiously- I’ve done it loosely with both of mine and they slept through from around 8 weeks. The basic idea with any routine though is that you structure feed and nap times to ensure baby has had enough daytime calories to not need night feeds and the right amount of daytime sleep at the right time so they are tired enough to sleep for 10-12 hours but not overtired which can cause them to be hard to settle. Keeping in mind there are also big developmental changes to the way babies sleep at around 4 months, it’s just to young. If the routine doesn’t work then I’d do sleep training at 6 months old and not a day before.

Planned and done safely, co sleeping is fine. I did it with ds since day 2. The thought of 'sleep training' a 4mo makes me feel nauseous. I'm not keen on it for older babies either. Your partner sounds horrid.

What is the reason for wanting to sleep train, OP? Just because you sleep train a baby, it doesn't mean they will "sleep better" or "sleep through" Baby sleep is developmental and nothing will change for them apart from the fact that they will learn that you are not coming if they need you, so no point in crying for you.

Plus there are still plenty more regressions to come, as well as teething, weaning etc which will all likely throw your sleep training out the window and you can start again. I firmly believe it's the expectation that parents need to change, rather than trying to train a baby to do something they are developmentally incapable of doing.

Safe cosleeping makes so much more sense IMHO.

If you read Emily Oster's book looking at the research it's not too young for cry it out, and there's no evidence that it harms the baby or affects their relationship with you beyond a few hours of crying spread over the several days it takes. If you have good reasons for doing it, for example being physically and mentally at the end of your tether, and you have tried more gentle methods, there is no reason for anyone to call you cruel or neglectful. They should be embarrassed of themselves if they did, because your intention would be the to do the best thing for your baby, you and your family. You need to be in a good state to look after your LO, and they need sleep too.

However, if it is something you feel you need to do, having tried other methods, you and your partner need to be on the same page, make a plan, and stick to it. Don't let yourself be pressured into it if it's not something you want. Maybe find a book and make sure your partner reads it. Buy him a copy so you can read it together!

I recommend the book Precious Little Sleep. It presents a range of options, including a cry it out method as a last resort, that you can try, along with the science and what to expect from infant sleep. The fact that it doesn't condemn CIO will hopefully make your partner receptive to trying something else first (and hopefully last!). I used one of the gradual methods with my DC at 3 months and it worked well. It didn't involve ignoring cries at all. There was less than 30 seconds crying the first night, the time it took my DP to walk back into the room and resettle our DC. 4 months is still young enough to be very receptive to something similar, so it's worth giving it a go, even if it feels improbable that you will be able to make it work before you start.

@Kakapop thanks so much for your thoughtful and helpful reply. I am indeed just trying to work out what's best for my little family. There is so much conflicting advise out there and I was just looking for some advice.
I also don't know that all sleep training involves allowing the baby to cry...so I'll take the neglect comments with a pinch of salt. The overwhelming response has been its too early for sleep training, so thank you and we will.focus on a good bed time routine. My baby fusses alot and I'm a very light sleeper/always aware of her which is no bad thing but I do want to try and get more sleep. I'm going to try and make a conscious effort to let her fuss and comfort her only when it turns into a cry. At the moment I always go to her mainly as o don't want things to escalate...but maybe I would be better seeing if she can self soothe. Thanks for the boom recommendation too!! A really helpful and thoughtful reply that's much much appreciated x

*book!

What is baby's current sleep schedule over 24h like?

Where does she sleep (daytime and nighttime) and how do you get her to sleep?

There will be things you can do now to help her (and you) sleep better. You could call then sleep training. Or you could call them developing good sleep habits.

I'm a sleep consultant. I wouldn't do any form of sleep training that leaves baby crying alone until past 12 months (and even then im not keen).

My biggest tip:

Keep the dummy.
Use it consistently whenever baby is upset and at every sleep time.

@JellyBabiesFan

It's neglect, no matter how it's dressed up. I've an almost 4 month old and I'd rather never sleep again than do that to him. If you want a less disturbed night's sleep then consider co-sleeping safely

How many babies have died when co sleeping? How many babies have cried themselves to death?

Just because you try to make co sleeping safe does not mean that it will be. If I had a choice between 4 month old controlled crying and co sleeping it would be the former every time.

OP some crying will be fine as long as you have tended to their essential needs ie hunger, uncomfortable, too hot and alike. However probably best to attempt to re settle and restart even though sometimes it feels like a pointless exercise.

Here is the latest data available on SIDS. In 2017 183 babies died from SIDS, roughly 50% split between those cosleeping and those not cosleeping. If those cosleeping 90% were cosleeping in a dangerous situation.

www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/07/Co-sleeping-and-SIDS-A-Guide-for-Health-Professionals.pdf

Too young, and I say that as someone who sleep trained.

Also hardly anyone who sleep trains ‘just leaves them to cry’. Most sleep training involves much more gentle methods than that.

Thanks @FATEdestiny
At the moment she wakes up around 630. First nap about an hour and a half after that. Then she will go maybe 2 hours till the next,2 hours till the next and if we need to fit in a fifth we do but keep it short. Her naps are only 45 mins. She generally naps in the pram as I'm out alot. I give her the dummy and rock her in the pram and she has the dummy. At night we have a good routine (I thibk) of bath, same music playlist, sleep spray, a feed, pyjamas and down in the cot awake but sleepy. She will sleep for max 3 hour stretches and then wakes up hungry. I'm not saying I've got a really troublesome baby that needs a solution...just researching sleep training and grateful for any other tips!

@Dorset555

Thanks *@FATEdestiny* At the moment she wakes up around 630. First nap about an hour and a half after that. Then she will go maybe 2 hours till the next,2 hours till the next and if we need to fit in a fifth we do but keep it short. Her naps are only 45 mins. She generally naps in the pram as I'm out alot. I give her the dummy and rock her in the pram and she has the dummy. At night we have a good routine (I thibk) of bath, same music playlist, sleep spray, a feed, pyjamas and down in the cot awake but sleepy. She will sleep for max 3 hour stretches and then wakes up hungry. I'm not saying I've got a really troublesome baby that needs a solution...just researching sleep training and grateful for any other tips!

What are you hoping to sleep train her out of?

Naps sound good (I'd reduce down awake window to 90 mins, but that's all it change). Bedtime sounds good. Sounds like independant settling is developing well.

The only issue I can see is night feeds. Is that what you're looking to solve? Are you breast or bottle feeding? How much is baby feeding during the day time? Do you have a way to get baby back to sleep in the night without feeding?

@Dorset555

Thanks *@FATEdestiny* At the moment she wakes up around 630. First nap about an hour and a half after that. Then she will go maybe 2 hours till the next,2 hours till the next and if we need to fit in a fifth we do but keep it short. Her naps are only 45 mins. She generally naps in the pram as I'm out alot. I give her the dummy and rock her in the pram and she has the dummy. At night we have a good routine (I thibk) of bath, same music playlist, sleep spray, a feed, pyjamas and down in the cot awake but sleepy. She will sleep for max 3 hour stretches and then wakes up hungry. I'm not saying I've got a really troublesome baby that needs a solution...just researching sleep training and grateful for any other tips!

This sounds really good! Not many babies sleep through the night at this age surely. Not sure what you want to achieve but it's definitely too young

It’s sounds like she is a completely normal 4 month old. 3 hour stretches of sleep is standard surely? Yes you would like more sleep but I imagine most parents of 4 months olds would!

I agree with PP that the expectation here is the problem not the baby...

I've not read any other replies. But:

It's pretty pointless trying to sleep train a 4 month old. Their sleep regressed at intervals during the first year or two. Just when you've got everything sorted BAM there s a sleep regression or a growth spurt and it all goes to pot.

My advice? Do what works for you as well as the Baby. If you are ok with comforting the Baby then crack on. If you need to find a way of letting the Baby self soothe because it's not working for you to be default comforter, crack on. It's fine. But if it stops working for you or the baby, find something else that works.

With DC1 she slept beautifully until she was 6 months and then it was tough, I just fed to sleep and can't remember much till we did some form of sleep training once she was about 2 and could understand more. With DC2 he was on meds that gave him night terrors so not possible to train.

We just did what worked to get through it. Sleep regressions were tough but, you know, small babies are tough to look after sometimes. I accepted it, cried a bit and we muddled through. Any attempt made at sleep training was lost when another round of regression came. Then once it settled down, it was fine.

The way I see it is that they go through more sleep regressions around 8-9 months so I don't see the point in sleep training before that because even if it works (and it doesn't always) you'd just have to start all over again.

At this age I'd just did sleep hygiene things like being dark and quiet at night.

The problem is people mean different things when they talk about 'sleep training.'

We paid for a 'sleep trainer' at 4 months out of desperation: she was pretty old school but v clear her methods wouldn't work for a baby that age, and that she wouldn't recommend anything other than a strict routine of naps and feeds and playtime till six months. In the end she was the one who told us our sleep problems were too extreme to be anything other than medical, and helped us get evidence that got allergies and reflux diagnosed.

I don't know anyone who 'trained' before 9 months where it did anything, except v short term, and where they didn't say they regretted it.

I think the main thing you can do at that age is get in the way of sleep - so, if its too bright, if you haven't put them down at the right moment so they get over-tired and miss a sleep window, etc etc. Good sleep hygiene and a routine that works for you and your baby is the closest I'd come. I know loads of people who swear the white noise worked/ the controlled crying worked/etc etc. In reality, some babies sleep, some babies wake more, and once your'e doing some fairly basic things you've nothing to worry about.

Leaving them to cry does nothing but get them worked up/teach them nobody will come. They're not doing it to manipulate you - I've a 2 1/2 year old and I still don't think she's capable of manipulation: sometimes she doesn't want to be on her own at night but its very genuine.

I found a lot of the gentle sleep books reassuring. 4 months is a good time to start a bedtime routine and sleep cues. Anything beyond that, I'd wait at least another 6 months for it to have any real effect.

She generally naps in the pram as I'm out alot.

Maybe cut that down and have some downtime yourself while she’s napping? Where on earth are you going?!

“suck it up and tend to the needs of the child you've just grown and birthed. I don't know why people have babies and then get upset about having to tend to them.”

‘Suck it up’ is pretty useless advice to a parent with chronic sleep deprivation who has no idea when it’ll get better (spoiler: it could be years), and a baby certainly doesn’t benefit from a carer with crippled mental health. Let’s at least take is as read that no-one considers sleep training lightly - it’s almost always a last resort.

“I don't know anyone who 'trained' before 9 months where it did anything, except v short term, and where they didn't say they regretted it.”

Well I’m very happy to be your first exception then :-)

And I'll be your second exception ... no one, unless they have very thick skin, is going to admit to sleep training a young baby on Mumsnet .....