Page 2 | Help - what are reasonable domestic standards?

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Twickerhun · 13/05/2021 19:09

When you say nappies are left on the floor are they bagged and or wrapped? And for how long? Are medicines out and out of reach of your child? How long would she leave a dirty plate for before washing it?

It’s so hard to know. You don’t sound unreasonable at all. I have low standards at times but do clean up eventually. What you are describing sounds like neglect

GeoffMac2020 · 13/05/2021 19:09

@Harrysmummy246

Well I'm very glad you're not my DH. How bloody condescending

I'm glad someone said it! Lol. Can you believe this guy??

WorkingMummaof3 · 13/05/2021 19:15

@SixDegrees

I’d be concerned about this. Some of it sounds potentially dangerous (the medicines being left out) and neglectful.

I agree with pp that it sound like some sort of Executive Function disorder might be possible. I know some people are disorganised but this sounds extreme.

With the cooking - can she seriously not manage to do something as simple as follow the instructions on a microwave ready meal?

But this is what makes me suspicious! He's talking about a mid-30's year old woman who has kept a 2.5 year old alive while he has been away working so she can obviously cook but just not at his standard! I think he's really exaggerating how "neglectful" of a mother this person is. Also, leaving dirty nappies all around the house. I mean, at 2.5, you're almost potty trained so there's not even much opportunity for nappies to be out! It all sounds suss.

AnneLovesGilbert · 13/05/2021 19:16

That’s disgusting and dangerous. Leaving dirty nappies on the floor and medication where a toddler can reach it is completely unacceptable.

As for the suggestion that loving your child is “hard and taxing labour” give me a fucking break

Loving your child is easy and many parents who have their children removed from them love their children but can’t or won’t care for their basic needs such as hygiene, clean clothes, simple healthy meals, not existing around potentially fatal drugs and literal excrement.

And as if a cleaner would agree to work in such a shit tip. No one can clean around piles of clothes and paperwork.

I’d leave, and take your child with you. Once again, love is easy but parenting involves a lot more than love.

WorkingMummaof3 · 13/05/2021 19:27

Love, I've got to be honest, you seem totally out of sorts to me. I agree with above: at 2.5 if your son was treated as poorly as you are suggesting, family and nursery would be involved. And that many nappies at 2.5? Seems like an exaggeration...

You also say you are away a lot so it seems like she is the one feeding, bathing and generally loving him. Please don't put this mother in the same category as ones who are genuinely neglectful. That's dangerous. I think you need to carefully reflect on the accuracy of what saying or if you are upset about other things in your relationship.

You suggested you might split up? Is it possible that you are focusing on some of her less-than traits instead of addressing larger problems in your relationship?

I think you aligning this with his homework etc. is unfair. Does your partner value education? If yes, her untidy traits will likely bear no weight on this and its not right to align the two.

Maybe you need to sit and have an even clearer conversation about your expectations. I would expect my husband to feed my kid but have his face wiped and hair clean all the time? Hell no. I think you have some unreasonable expectations that you need to communicate to her.

WorkingMummaof3 · 13/05/2021 19:32

@AnneLovesGilbert

That’s disgusting and dangerous. Leaving dirty nappies on the floor and medication where a toddler can reach it is completely unacceptable.

As for the suggestion that loving your child is “hard and taxing labour” give me a fucking break

Loving your child is easy and many parents who have their children removed from them love their children but can’t or won’t care for their basic needs such as hygiene, clean clothes, simple healthy meals, not existing around potentially fatal drugs and literal excrement.

And as if a cleaner would agree to work in such a shit tip. No one can clean around piles of clothes and paperwork.

I’d leave, and take your child with you. Once again, love is easy but parenting involves a lot more than love.

My point is (and many others) is that this User is seriously exaggerating how bad it is for the child at home. And that it seems likely that family and or nursery would have stepped in if it was that bad.

If there are also fatal drugs at home, it is also the fathers to keep them from the house, not just the mothers!! The mother has seemed to keep a fed and happy child going for 2.5 years, it seems like this dad is a bit of an obsessive freak. Why is no one considering that as a possibility??

vodkaredbullgirl · 13/05/2021 19:33

GeoffMac2020 · 13/05/2021 19:35

I seriously question much you have exaggerated these stories about your partner. At 2.5 years old, if your child was not properly fed, bathed and / or cared for, then concerned family members or nursery members would have stepped in at this point.

You say you are not around much and / or travel a lot. If that's the case, then who feeds him every night? Who gives his baths? Who took him to his vaccinations? Has he ever missed an important date for a medical appointment or birthday party or school visit? If it's mum who has done most of these things, it sounds to me like it is more you that has some kind of obsessive / control issue that you need to think seriously about.

Yeah maybe there's nappies on the ground and he's not eating 5 star meals, but he sounds well loved by your partner and for that you should be incredibly grateful.

And PS - all our bills go in the bin as we have them paid automatically online. If so, this is absolutely no reflection of her abilities as a parent.

Echobelly · 13/05/2021 19:45

I think @GeoffMac2020 really gets to the point - I do think you are trying to be fair, but maybe you need to see all the things your partner does do as well as what she doesn't?

I get being concerned about how it impacts on child.

But, as everyone has asked, what does your DP say about this? That affects things hugely. Does she deny there's a problem? Acknowledge the issue but say she just doesn't have the time/energy? (In which case, what does she need to make things manageable) Get furious and insist she's an amazing housekeeper?

Do you know what might be behind this for her as well? As in could it be a reaction against growing up in mega-tidy, regimented surroundings? Did she have everything done for her and really lax parents? Did she grow up in a total pigsty? Again, all these will affect things.

NB to all those saying 'How many nappies at 2.5' - both my kids were in them until after 3, so yes, there can very much still be nappies around.

Neonprint · 13/05/2021 19:51

I think in terms of what is acceptable it's about keeping things functional safe and hygienic. Anything else is aesthetics, but this can still be a deal breaker. I couldn't be with somone like this. But that doesn't make her bad just different to me.

It's hard to know if things are safe, functional and hygienic. The nappies don't sound it. But there's a difference between leaving nappies to pile up for days and leaving one in a bag next to the door because it's raining or the baby is crying.

Similarly with cooking, some people can't cook and don't want to you can feed yourself perfectly well with prepared food. It doesn't have to be junk. Like roast veg trays or stir fry bags. Not for everyone but functional.

It does sound like there's a lot of judgment from you. It would be good to know what she says when you talk about it.

GeoffMac2020 · 13/05/2021 20:10

@Neonprint

I think in terms of what is acceptable it's about keeping things functional safe and hygienic. Anything else is aesthetics, but this can still be a deal breaker. I couldn't be with somone like this. But that doesn't make her bad just different to me.

It's hard to know if things are safe, functional and hygienic. The nappies don't sound it. But there's a difference between leaving nappies to pile up for days and leaving one in a bag next to the door because it's raining or the baby is crying.

Similarly with cooking, some people can't cook and don't want to you can feed yourself perfectly well with prepared food. It doesn't have to be junk. Like roast veg trays or stir fry bags. Not for everyone but functional.

It does sound like there's a lot of judgment from you. It would be good to know what she says when you talk about it.

Yes and this was kind of my point too. The mum is in her mid-30's so obviously capable of feeding herself and the little one. It just seems like someone's standards are unrealistic and as others have mentioned, it seems like there's larger issues at play.

Thank you for pointing out the bad vs different. Some calls on here saying there's neglect might encourage the dad to make some potentially dangerous moves

GeoffMac2020 · 13/05/2021 20:12

@Echobelly

I think *@GeoffMac2020* really gets to the point - I do think you are trying to be fair, but maybe you need to see all the things your partner does do as well as what she doesn't?

I get being concerned about how it impacts on child.

But, as everyone has asked, what does your DP say about this? That affects things hugely. Does she deny there's a problem? Acknowledge the issue but say she just doesn't have the time/energy? (In which case, what does she need to make things manageable) Get furious and insist she's an amazing housekeeper?

Do you know what might be behind this for her as well? As in could it be a reaction against growing up in mega-tidy, regimented surroundings? Did she have everything done for her and really lax parents? Did she grow up in a total pigsty? Again, all these will affect things.

NB to all those saying 'How many nappies at 2.5' - both my kids were in them until after 3, so yes, there can very much still be nappies around.

Sorry what might seem like judgement about the nappies. I only meant to suggest that there was likely to be less at 2.5 which was a comment keeping in trend that the user was exaggerating quite a bit and judgemental.

He's failed to mention whether she's a working mum which would have lots of other thoughts on this..

LindsayLoves1983 · 13/05/2021 20:20

Keeping in trend with what others are saying, you seem judgemental and like you are exaggerating quite a bit. Did she leave some panadol on the counter or some calpol? How is she overall with his safety?

Some nappies left out while rushing to get out the door are hardly cause for concern. Dirty hair and mouth? Like all toddlers.

Is she also working? Because what I'm hearing is that you are gone often and working late, she is carrying a lot of the emotional labour, she is potentially a working mother AND she seems to be doing the feeding and bathing since you're gone.

Honestly, what are you complaining about? You seem to be looking for something that doesn't exist or you are trying very hard to make something exist.

GrumpyHoonMain · 13/05/2021 20:21

@j2dhijcb3icnj3pefc3ifuh3pi3

Hello - thanks for taking the time to read.

I'm concerned about some of my partner's behaviours/skills/abilities around general domestic stuff & (a) can't work out if i'm being unreasonable now, (b) wondering where it might to later on.

Firsly i want to come clean that i am a father & my concerns are around our son's mother. However, i want to be very clear that my concerns around making an appropriate home environement for a child apply to both parents - it just happens to be this way around in my story. So i'm going to talk about my partner as she/her, but in no way am i suggesting that her, or any mother's responsibilities, should be different to any man's.

I would describe my partner as completely undomesticated. We got pregnant accidentally, having never lived together, & decided to give things a go. I was completely shocked when we moved in together - it was like living in a student house. Clothes everywhere, plates left out, utility bills straight in the bin, no idea how to operate a vacuum cleaner, beds never made, spills not addressed, etc, etc etc. She was 32 at that point. It caused a lot of issues for us.

Our boy is now 2.5. Generally things are better - they had to be - but i think still a long way short of what i think is right for a child's home environment - still lots of mess, plates, general disarray. Not only that, but her characteristics are now also visible in her parenting. His hands & face are never wiped clean, his hair is never cleaned, she'll throw any old clothes on him (all aesthitic i know). She cannot cook - litterally nothing - toast, microwave stuff, pack mac'n'cheese. She therefore does no shopping. I find bits of paper (medical, daycare, etc) left randomly around. Medicine left out. Used nappies on the floor.

Now i know that each of these are individually trivial when compared other parenting traits. Its certainly only fair that i say how good she is with him emotionally, much better than i could hope to be. Clearly she & i are very different - you can probably read between the lines to see that i am quite orgnaised, tidy, take care of myself, eat well, etc - but i cant work out if this situation is her not meeting my standards, or whether its just not good enough for a parent.

I also wonder how this will develop as he grows. How will this carelessness manifest? Will his homework be done? Will he be bullied at school for looking a mess? Will he miss out on things because of a lost letter? Are there other associated impacts that i havent even thought to worry about yet?

Obviously i have reponsibilities in each of these areas. The only way we have got to now is by me doing all of the cleaning, all of the shopping, all of the cooking, all of the paperwork, washing his hair, cleaning his face, putting the medicine away. But i cant be home all of the time - in fact i have to travel with work or work late quite frequently. Further, it is not impossible that our relationship will end & i would be around even less...

Are my concerns unreasonable? Am i just judging by my own standards? Should i just be thankful that she is so caring & emotinally attentive? Am i right to worry about where this could end? Does he deserve a better home...?

I suggest you throw money at the problem if possible. Send DS to nursery full time (don’t give her a choice to say no - nurseries will call out when kids seem neglected and it might give her the nudge she needs to sort herself out ), hire a cleaner 2-3 times a week, laundary service, get a food delivery service etc.

If you can’t throw money at the problem without her going to work then tell her that you need that to happen.

If you don’t think she’s a good mum and are worried about your child’s safety while you are away, contact social services for help. They aren’t always the bad guys

SixDegrees · 13/05/2021 20:29

But this is what makes me suspicious! He's talking about a mid-30's year old woman who has kept a 2.5 year old alive while he has been away working so she can obviously cook but just not at his standard!

I agree that it sounds unlikely that someone in their mid-30’s would be incapable of cooking even a simple thing like a microwave ready meal. That’s a mind boggling level of incompetence around cooking.

But I guess if someone was basing their diet around takeaways then they could get away without needing to do any cooking. Which, of course, isn’t the same thing as being incapable of cooking.

GrumpyHoonMain · 13/05/2021 20:35

@SixDegrees

But this is what makes me suspicious! He's talking about a mid-30's year old woman who has kept a 2.5 year old alive while he has been away working so she can obviously cook but just not at his standard!

I agree that it sounds unlikely that someone in their mid-30’s would be incapable of cooking even a simple thing like a microwave ready meal. That’s a mind boggling level of incompetence around cooking.

But I guess if someone was basing their diet around takeaways then they could get away without needing to do any cooking. Which, of course, isn’t the same thing as being incapable of cooking.

Keeping a child alive is the bare minimum standard we should be reaching for. You can keep a 2.5 yo alive via chocolates, biscuits and cold, leftover MacDonalds like my friend’s DD did before social services intervened.

Bubbles34 · 13/05/2021 20:42

do you know much about her upbringing? she may have grew up like this, and her parents never told her how to clean up or cook for herself.
a cleaner sounds a good start

Workingfromhomeishell · 13/05/2021 20:47

@ZooKeeper19

I second PP. I presume you have talked to her and she says she will do/will change/knows and nothing changes.

Many women complain their partners are similar (but this sounds like a teenager to me honestly, or worse...). Dirty nappies on the floor? Medicine out? Bills to bin? That is not acceptable anywhere at any age, not when you are 4, 14 or 24.

You have a few options. 1) you can do all yourself. 2) you can hire a cleaner (but more like a nanny to your partner really...). 3) you can leave and hope for the best for your son to survive. I like 1&2 most, get help with cleaning first. Try to make a rule on what goes where and who does what (dishes, laundry, hovering etc). Like teaching your son, you will have to try and teach her. If you keep your lifestyle and teach your son to do the same (he will do as he sees however, they all do) then you may stand a chance.

Good luck.

This.

The situation sounds really hard OP.

I don't think your expectations are unreasonable.

What you are describing is more than just untidiness- it is unhygienic and dangerous.

Your partner needs to make a greater effort in these areas. It is not hard to put a soiled nappy in the bin....

MissingCoffeeandWine · 13/05/2021 20:50

OP, to what level are the things your happening describing? I grew up in a household where cleanliness was key - if you left a cup down for too long it was washed tidied and out away (occasionally mid chat). My OH grew up in a household that is cluttered and in my eyes full of “junk” but to his family were collectibles and mementos of important moments. From a household perspective we couldn’t be more different!!

He would sleep in sheets for weeks, id change them weekly. He wears clothes more than I do.

He would dress our daughter in clothes that are comfortable, but not necessarily matching and would think nothing of putting on a garden stained pair of leggings if they were going to the park!

He will change nappies, and leave them to one side for the day and do a “clear down” at night. Whereas the thought/smell alone of doing that makes me gag!

We’ve different standards. His strengths balance out mine. And so we compromise. One half day at the weekend the house gets blitzed and we work through a cleaning list. Laundry is shared etc. BUT in reality I do more of the day to day cleaning, because it matters to me, and actually he doesn’t care! He’d leave the toys on the floor until the morning, and spend the time reading our toddler a book. It’s one of the things I love and hate about him.

I could judge him for it, but I’m not sure it achieves anything. What I’m not sure I’m hearing from your post is how you compromise? You both live together and are raising a family. Her values matter too (even if untypical). What would you like the balance for you guys to be? And what happens when you try to talk to her about it?

SadieRousseau · 13/05/2021 20:58

@AnneLovesGilbert

That’s disgusting and dangerous. Leaving dirty nappies on the floor and medication where a toddler can reach it is completely unacceptable.

As for the suggestion that loving your child is “hard and taxing labour” give me a fucking break

Loving your child is easy and many parents who have their children removed from them love their children but can’t or won’t care for their basic needs such as hygiene, clean clothes, simple healthy meals, not existing around potentially fatal drugs and literal excrement.

And as if a cleaner would agree to work in such a shit tip. No one can clean around piles of clothes and paperwork.

I’d leave, and take your child with you. Once again, love is easy but parenting involves a lot more than love.

How utterly irresponsible to make the suggestion "i'd leave and take your child with you" knowing that the mother provides the emotional support. One should never make this type of assertion based on the very little information you have in a short post. Please know your place in this forum, its to provide constructive feedback, not potentially destructive advice.m

Original poster

j2dhijcb3icnj3pefc3ifuh3pi3 · 13/05/2021 21:10

Wow. Thank you everybody for taking the time to respond. I genuinely appreciate all of the feedback, even those which question my angle. From the start i have been very open to this all being my issue, not hers.

I understand the questions around how our son has managed to get to 2.5 without issue, me being out all of the time, etc. So to briefly address those - i have obvisouly been home for the past 14 or so months & only now starting to mobilise back to work, also with a new job which has me travelling more than when our son was a baby. When he was little my partner was breastfeeding, looking after him on maternity, etc. so of course I picked up the additional house work without thinking to complain... So up to now my involvement has prevented the outside world understanding what its like to live with her. We live abroad, so have had no family present & are still building a community (which is hard to do in covid times)

That considered, there does seem to be a balance of opinion here, even if i take out the extremes at either end. I accept that i may be overly-concerned about some less significant areas, & that her emotional input is the most important (i tried to mention this in original post). But some have correctly identified my concerns around ending our relationship & the sort of lifestyle / home my son would live in without me filling in the gaps.

We do have a cleaner twice a week, & we have spoken about the issues at length. Both have helped to some extent. I dont think she has mental issues - i think she just doesnt see these things as important.

The series of arguments you have kindly contributed are a reflection of my internal thoughts on the matter. I range from "this is neglect" to "stop over-reacting, pick up the nappy yourself"... but its taking its toll & im spending more time thinking closer to the former, hence me reaching out to this forum. I do worry about the habits he will form, i do worry about his diet, his health, how he might be treated by other kids.

OP posts:

AnneLovesGilbert · 13/05/2021 21:21

Chill out Sadie. It’s all of our place to provide our opinions. OP asked for people’s opinions. I gave mine. You came over all pious and condescending which probably made you feel good about yourself but isn’t worth a think to the OP. Go have a cuppa and be calm.

SadieRousseau · 13/05/2021 22:27

I worked in protective services for over 20 years and I implore you to not sure words such as "neglect". Does your partner deny your child water? What happens when he is ill? Does she refuse to take him to the hospital? THAT is neglect.

What you are talking about are preferences e.g., I PREFER he eat fish over mac&cheese, I PREFER he wear matching clothes, I PREFER you pick up the nappy straight away instead of the end of the day. This is not neglect and you need to very clearly understand this.

imgoingtoregretthis · 13/05/2021 22:33

My house is pretty clean, but occasionally I don't put a nappy straight in the bin ( wee only, poo gets bagged and either put just outside back door or in outside bin if practical)

However I do feel you are enabling her to be like this. You will pick it up, you will feed him good food and get a cleaner. It's hard because you don't want to live in mess, but I think this question is more you want to leave the relationship, should you leave him with her and what can you do if you are away a lot? So there is your choice, why do you want to leave ? Parenting is a partnership. Is she a stay at home mum or could she go back to work and a nanny help or nursery? Maybe her mess is just she isn't motivated so a little depressed.

carolcarolcarrot · 14/05/2021 05:56

But why can't you make sure his diet is good (make his lunch before you leave for work, put something in the slow cooker for tea etc)?
That he has clean clothes and is washed etc?

I understand it's hard and you should ideally both achieve this. But as far as I can see so many of your concerns can be addressed by you.

Help - what are reasonable domestic standards?

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